[Envchemist]

Ok, I know I'm opening Pandora's box and that everyone will see this differently. But I still would like to revisit this topic. I recall the last time this was discussed was at least 6 months ago. One poster even said he split his last kit...half bulk age and half bottled according the instructions time table. He said the one that was bottle via the kit instructions was better than the set bulk aged--but that's only one person. I still see a lot of us doing this so I want to try and figure out if my wine would be better for it. So here's my question(s).

If you bulk age, how long did you age it for? Did you still age the bottles as long as normal? Have you compared the difference between bulk and just bottle aging?

What difference do you think there is between bottle and bulk aging? It's frankly hard for me to see/understand the difference. So what are the advantages? I'm confused about what the difference is in a bottle or in the carboy, lol other than volume. And I was also wondering if wine companies do this before they bottle or do they bottle age from the beginning!?


Thanks!!

Nydia

[Vinmaker]

Wow. So many questions.

I bulk age for about 10 months. This is to make way for the next harvest. You need clean carboys to begin anew. I like to bulk age so that I am assured that the wine is stable and has dropped out all of its "stuff" prior to bottling. I do not filter and try to stay away from fining agents.

I think the commercial wineries bulk age for the simple reason that it is cheaper to store 1,000 gallons in a big vat than it is to bottle them and store it that way.

Not sure about the taste difference. I think the bottles would be consistent at least.

On big thing with me is that in bulk age status, you do not drink it. It keeps you away from the wine. Even if it is just to let someone taste it. If it was in bottles, I could easily see myself going into the cellar and opening a bottle for people to taste. Even though it is not ready yet. So in that sense, it keeps you away from it. Which is a good thing.

If you have the desire for another kit, then by all means bottle it and start a new one. Just try to leave the new bottles alone.

[capguneddy]

envchemist:
Your right you did open a pandora's box.

Bulk and bottle aging are different processes, bulk aging is not as much about aging as it is about giving the wine time to go thru various chemical processes after fermentation. It is also used to reduce bottle variation to a minimum. Otherwise, once the wine is in the bottle, the bottle size will influence aging and yes, the larger the bottle the slower the aging process and the longer the wine will keep.

I have done both and really have no preference of one over the other. It boils down to what I want the end result to be for my wine and how soon I want it.

The endless discussion of which is the better way, will probably go on forever. Its really a redundant argument, because there is nothing wrong with either, it boils down to what you want and which system suits you best. In the end your own palate will be and should be your guide.

Regards
Ed

[rrs18]

Its really a redundant argument, because there is nothing wrong with either, it boils down to what you want and which system suits you best. In the end your own palate will be and should be your guide.

Bingo. And very well said.

[Brad B.]

One aspect of this discussion that should be kept in mind: Wine from fresh fruit and sometimes fresh juice generally requires a longer time to stabilize--in that there are more processes that must be completed, such as MLF, protein stabilization, cold stabilization. These need to be done in bulk and one must allow some time at the end to assure adequate completion.

On the other hand, kits usually don't require those to be done and consequently there is less of a risk of an unstable wine being bottled too early.

As for taste/aging differences, who the hell knows. For me, it's more a matter of procrastination ("I'll get around to bottling these carboys this weekend...or maybe next weekend...or maybe next summer.")

[drew22to375]

In my limited experience with kits I don't think you really gain much from bulk aging. I have not noticed any difference in the kits I have bulk aged and the kits I bottled soon after it was clear and stable. Now I do bulk age my kits 3-6 months as I don't filter and it also helps to naturally degas itself. Now with my wines made with fresh fruit I think it is more important to me to bulk age at least 6 months as I still get more sediment dropping out during that time than you get with kits. And this way I can still raid the carboys when I get thirsty for a midnight snack . Reading Tims last article in winemaker mag he kind of came across that it was kind of a waste of time to bulk age kits.

Drew..

[Brad B.]

And I was also wondering if wine companies do this before they bottle or do they bottle age from the beginning!?

The winery I work for is quite small (2,500 cases/year) but here's what we do.

White, fruity, stainless-fermented wines get bottled within 6 months of harvest to retain fruitiness. No real need to "age" Riesling, Traminette, etc in large vessels. Chardonnay is barrel aged a bit longer and then bottled. Whites are not released until they are in bottle at least 4-6 weeks (bottle shock), but usually are in bottle longer until the prior vintage is sold out.

Reds get barrel aged for up to one year. Of course barrel aging is a different animal and probably doesn't fall within your carboy/bottle discussion as the purpose is significantly different. Bottle aging can be several months after that.

In a commercial environment, other aspects come into play--availability of vessels for the next harvest, room in the bottle storage warehouse, etc. Sometimes if the white wine tanks are not completely full, it is better to bottle early--just to protect the wine from oxidation. There are ways to protect it in the tank (inert gas), but they are not very efficient. Often cork is the better option.

[Envchemist]

Thanks guys, you gave me a lot to think about. I knew this would be a matter of individual opinion and that's what I got and I appreciate it. Asking this question reminds me of the time I was at Baloo class (training for Cub Scout camping) and asked what backpacking stove was the best! I got a lot of feedback and it helped (lol and a lot of conflicting opinions).

This is what I'm thinking about:
I do agree if it's not in the bottle there is definately no temptation to sample. Geez, using a wine thief to get a glass of wine is a pain and messy! And I have had some variability between bottles--though I wonder if it's just how the cork got into the bottle. I don't think in the past we were perfect on that. The noracorcs seemed to have worked very well this time! I agree that barrels ARE NOT the way. I don't have the money lol to keep them constantly full. So I will mull this over (maybe over a glass of wine). Thanks for all the input!

Nydia

[drew22to375]

I do agree if it's not in the bottle there is definately no temptation to sample. Geez, using a wine thief to get a glass of wine is a pain and messy!

Nydia:

What I do if I just want a taste just to see how it is coming along. Which has been quite often lately. Is I sanitize one of those 10ml pipettes. I'm sure you have plenty of those at work. Or if you are really thirsty a turkey baster is your best friend. I used a winethief once and it was such a PITA. And that was the last time I have used one.

Drew..

[Envchemist]

Drew you crack me up!

Actually I'm now a Quality Assurance officer, but lol I'm sure I could get a 10 ml pipet for a good cause! It would definately be easier than using a wine thief! But since I know what they have had in them...even though they are well well cleaned. I'll pass!

Nydia

[Vinmaker]

Well there you go Nydia. The answers to all your questions.

[Envchemist]

That's exactly why I come here. Someone usually has an answer!

Nydia

[Borisbbadd]

I hate to sound stupid but what is a 10 ml pipet ?

[Envchemist]

A pipet is a glass tube that is capable of measuring a specific amount of liquid. You use suction to pull a liquid into the pipet and usually you remove the suction and place your finger at the top to hold the liquid in the tube. You can release the liquid by slightly releasing pressure with your finger. Chemists use them to accurately transfer liquids. I could use one instead of a wine thief to remove a liquid from the carboy...if I wanted to. It would definately be less messy.

Nydia

[Borisbbadd]

Hey, I know more now than when I woke up...................COOL !!!

Thanks alot,

Randy