[homevino]

This is eating me up. I know it's been discussed and frankly, I've been searching the net day and night on it. I know this topic is about impossible to talk about in forums.

First... I just dumped a 3 gallon carboy of watermelon. Yuk! Live and learn. Ole jack warned me about straight watermelon. What can I say... they were seedless on sale.

Ok, now that that's off my chest, I'll start by stateing, I'm a little tipsy after tasing about 5 different wines happnin' in the cellar. And this brings me to my comments.

I've been making wine for about 5 years now and I feel like when I get a good batch of wine, I'm not 100% absolutly positive why. I document everything so that I know what I did.

But I have to ask... when we taste our wine, we think of words to describe it... tart, bitter, tingy on the toungue, ripe, etc. I've tasted all my wine tonight during rackings and two of the batches that look absolutely BEAUTIFUL, are "tingy on the tongue/tart."

These are MontMorency Cherry batches... one with blackberries in it as well. One is a Rose and another is an off-dry (at least striving for)

While they are not terrible, I wonder what they might need, if anything. Some say "trust your wine" and that's what I have been doing for the last five years. But now, I'd like to know, based on what I taste, how to make educated adjustments.

I would even say that I am not the best at choosing the proper adjectives to describe the taste. It seems that it would be pretty important to know what you are tasting to make educated decisions.

I have made a whopping dandelion wine and a cherry wine before... and the I have a batch of Gewurtztriminer that is tasting awesome. However, my other wines... while good, still have that homemade taste... "wild" maybe. I always keep some bottles aging in the celler to understand how time affects it.

But, I was wondering if anyone could point me in the right direction or make suggestions etc. as to where I might first find a taste chart... or something that helps me describe what I taste... and then possibly... the reasons it tastes like that.

I know that may be a bold request. But I feel like I have been needing to take things to the next level and I'm stuck on a plateau right now. These two batches of cherry look and smell wonderful, but I am concerned about ther taste at this point in time. Again, I would describe it as ripe, tart. Maybe it gets better in time. I'm tempted to sweeten it. I just hit it with the pot. sorbate... cause it tastes alcoholic and I didn't want to change it too much more at this point.

Thanks for any insight, knowledge and time.

Jason

[leiavoia]

This is what you are looking for:

http://www.winearomawheel.com/

although it's hard to get a picture of it online since it's a sale item. You get the info here though:

http://www.eblong.co...lavorwheel.html

[Wade's Wines]

Wow! These are cool! I've been looking for something like this too. Just ordered one of each.
Wade

[Jay-CastleRock]

Wade,

Did you bench trial the wine first before adding the biolees? Did you add too much or too little? I think what stops alot of wine makers from making better wine is fear. Thay beleive that if they make an addition or what to try a new addative that they have to do it to the whole batch. There is nothing wong with pulling a few liters out, breaking it down into 500 Ml batches and trying a few things. Does it need oak? Will some K-Carb take the tart out? Is it off and need copper sulfite? Is it as simple as just needing a good splash racking and MLF? If you have a wine you're not happy with, what's the worst that could happen, make it better?

[Jack Keller]

First... I just dumped a 3 gallon carboy of watermelon. Yuk! Live and learn. Ole jack warned me about straight watermelon. What can I say... they were seedless on sale.

* * * S N I P * * *

But I have to ask... when we taste our wine, we think of words to describe it... tart, bitter, tingy on the toungue, ripe, etc. I've tasted all my wine tonight during rackings and two of the batches that look absolutely BEAUTIFUL, are "tingy on the tongue/tart."

* * * S N I P * * *

I know that may be a bold request. But I feel like I have been needing to take things to the next level and I'm stuck on a plateau right now. These two batches of cherry look and smell wonderful, but I am concerned about ther taste at this point in time. Again, I would describe it as ripe, tart. Maybe it gets better in time. I'm tempted to sweeten it. I just hit it with the pot. sorbate... cause it tastes alcoholic and I didn't want to change it too much more at this point.

Jason, you have arrived at the most important plateau you can arrive at in winemaking -- the plateau of analytical dissatisfaction. When you leave it, if you are headed uphill you will be on the right path, if downhill you will have given up. Let's try to find a path upwards.

The Aroma Wheel, which has been mentioned, is an insightful and wholly validated methodology for wine appreciation. It deals with finished wines, well aged and developed in their complexity. But being able to detect notes of asparagus, tobacco or black cherry in an aged wine will not help you turn a so-so young wine into one that will develop those notes.

I have always maintained the aroma wheel concept could be simplified immensely and combined with a tasting kit to serve the needs of winemakers in overcoming the very thing you are stuck on. I even worked on developing tasting samples for such a kit, but gave up when I realized the samples evolve over time, just like wine, and the tastes and aromas I established initially evolved after six to twelve months into something quite different and unpredictable -- just like wine does. So, for the entrepreneurs out there, here is the challenge: (1) develop 25-30 liquid samples that portray in taste the most common developmental deficiencies in winemaking (with corresponding instructions on correcting them), and (2) reduce the liquids to dry form (powder, crystal) that can be flawlessly reconstituted by adding distilled water to recapture the exact taste of the original deficiency.

Now, having thrown the challenge on the table, let's see what we might do to educate the senses of taste and smell to recognize (correcting is another topic altogether) the more common deficiencies in winemaking.

Hmmm, having glanced at the clock with two successive impending appointments awaiting me, I must be brief. So I will begin the discussion and hope that others will join in to offer suggestions of value.

The problems that deficient but otherwise sound wines are likely to encounter center around the concept of balance. I have spoken about that on this forum before in detail and on my WineBlog, so will refer you to those former posts for more insights. Meanwhile, I will try to briefly outline some of the aspects of wine wholesomeness. (BTW, by "otherwise sound" wines I mean those free of inappropriate constituents, microbial or clearing problems.)

Balance means the proper interplay of the sweet and sour tastes often associated with wines, whether made from grapes, fruit, berries, or flowers. Wines made from roots, bark, seeds (including seedpods and nuts), leaves and stalks might have abnormal balance problems, so let's ignore them here.

The sweet taste involves primarily sugar and alcohol, but to a lesser extent glycerin too. The sour taste is primarily concerned with acids and tannins, although certain other phenols and amino acids can come into play under certain circumstances. Let's ignore the latter for the time being.

If the wine is dry but balanced in sweetness, the sweet side of the equation is represented by alcohol and glycerin. If a dry wine tastes "tart" or "sour," the problem most likely is too much acid. If it tastes "astringent" or "tart" the problem is undoubtedly too much tannin, but if "bitter" (or "tingy on the tongue") then it is too much green tannin, the type you get from stems and leaves and occasionally cracked seeds or pits. These are corrected by (1) adding compensatory sweetness and/or (2) reducing the tannin by fining appropriately to drop them. It is possible to remove too much tannin and end up with a wine that is balanced in sweetness and acidity, but still lacks the "sharpness" or "bite" of wine. In this case you add tannin back in trial samples, but you add only grape tannin.

If the wine is dry, without any "tartness," it will taste "flat" and "lifeless." The problem here is acid deficiency, but tannin deficiency might be an accompanying problem. Correct for acid first, tannin second but only if it needs the tannin after the acid has been corrected.

There is much more I would have liked to say here, but I really do have to go. Since it is unlikely I will return on-line today, I'll let others jump in with observations and suggestions.

[dfwwino]

In addition to Jack's materials, there's a good article from the February/March 2005 issue of Winemaker by Daniel Pambianchi entitled "Balance in Wine: Understanding the relationship between acidity, sweetness, alcohol, and bitterness."

[Jay-CastleRock]

Wade,

Did you bench trial the wine first before adding the biolees? Did you add too much or too little? I think what stops alot of wine makers from making better wine is fear. Thay beleive that if they make an addition or what to try a new addative that they have to do it to the whole batch. There is nothing wong with pulling a few liters out, breaking it down into 500 Ml batches and trying a few things. Does it need oak? Will some K-Carb take the tart out? Is it off and need copper sulfite? Is it as simple as just needing a good splash racking and MLF? If you have a wine you're not happy with, what's the worst that could happen, make it better?

OK - This 4 hour a night of sleep thing is getting to me. Jason not wade - bottom line is to try new things but fist understand why it is you do the things you do now. If you do something with your wines now know why you do it and not just because.

[karl]

When all the analysis parameters read right and there is no faults/infections in the wine it is my experience that storing it is the best procedure for improving. Trying to blend or otherwise correct the taste at an early stage is not always the best approach.

[Jay-CastleRock]

Trying to blend or otherwise correct the taste at an early stage is not always the best approach.

This I'd have to disagree with. You should be monitoring and tasting your juice, must, and wine at all stages. It's far easier to fix something at the onset versus a full blown problem.

[homevino]

Thanks for all who are chiming in. I think this merits a forum called "Perfecting Homemade Wine" ... or something.

There has been a great deal of insight thus far. Jack, I've read over your wine blog and have it in my bookmarks. I did find a lot of great stuff that gives me a good point of reference and what can be done from here. I know there is still a lot I don't know

Regarding the latest comments between karl and jay-castlerock, this sounds like a difference between two different styles. I've had some great wine when just "trusting it" but I've also had the same amount of just "satisfactory" wine. So, at this point in my process, I feel like the wine is needing more intervention that I've given previously... despite all my readings being correct.

I look forwerd to ANY and ALL discourse about this subject. Specifically, opinions on some of the basics that are often taken for granted, i.e.

- When to transfer from primary to secondary. Days vs. SG readings. If you wait too long and the SG gets below what is recommend... usually around .995 or so on many wines... does that really affect anything?

- Interesting... I've never used bentonite right up front in my process when I add the primary ingredients.. until some recent grape batches. Perhaps this is more relevant to grape wines and not fruit? My recent batch of grape wine is definitely working and I'm not inclined to change a thing. It'll be ready to bottle in 14 days and will store for 6 months before drinking. I am confident it'll be one of my best wines. Thought on bentonite?

- I have been getting TA readings along with SG before primary ferment. It seems important here. Are there other times when these readings are necessary? It seems when racking to secondary would be good to know... but how do you know where it should be at that time, and why? Should it be one way for cherries and another way for grapes? In grape wine... cooling contributes to wine diamonds on the bottom of the cork that I understand is not detrimental, but it telling in the tartaric acid content.

- Whipping the lees back into the wine during secondary and trying to push out CO2. Good for both oxidative and reductive wines?

Well... I have more... but you catch my drift. I am HUGE into sour cherry wines (cause I have a lifetime supply) I also have a blackberry supply and my grapes are in their 1st year. I plan to do another planting of grapes next spring. These three ingredients (and variations of) comprise my types of wines and so I am interesting in knowing the techniques and styles any of you would like to share when making these types of wine. I think some specific examples regarding specific wines would be a great lesson to anyone on here.

Are TA readings more important for grape wines than country/fruit wines?

Thanks everyone for your genuine interest. This is a great online community.

Jason

[Jack Keller]

This I'd have to disagree with. You should be monitoring and tasting your juice, must, and wine at all stages. It's far easier to fix something at the onset versus a full blown problem.

Jay, you need to go back and re-read Karl's entire post. He is only talking about "When all the analysis parameters read right and there [are] no faults/infections in the wine it is my experience that storing it is the best procedure for improving." In other words, there is no problem to become "full blown." The only dissatisfaction, one must assume, is in the quality of the wine; the measures are all on the money. Given the parameters he sets up, I'd have to agree with him. You cannot correct something that shows no measurable imbalance, identifiable fault or obvious infection.

You concentrated on his statement, "Trying to blend or otherwise correct the taste at an early stage is not always the best approach" as if you assumed there was a problem. But Karl was clear in saying there is no measurable problem. Since we know taste will generally improve, I think he has selected the correct path.

On the other hand, if there is a measurable or perceived problem, then you would be quite correct and I think Karl would agree. However, that isn't what he said.

[homevino]

Jay, you need to go back and re-read Karl's entire post. He is only talking about "When all the analysis parameters read right and there [are] no faults/infections in the wine it is my experience that storing it is the best procedure for improving." In other words, there is no problem to become "full blown." The only dissatisfaction, one must assume, is in the quality of the wine; the measures are all on the money. Given the parameters he sets up, I'd have to agree with him. You cannot correct something that shows no measurable imbalance, identifiable fault or obvious infection.

You concentrated on his statement, "Trying to blend or otherwise correct the taste at an early stage is not always the best approach" as if you assumed there was a problem. But Karl was clear in saying there is no measurable problem. Since we know taste will generally improve, I think he has selected the correct path.

On the other hand, if there is a measurable or perceived problem, then you would be quite correct and I think Karl would agree. However, that isn't what he said.

Nice. Jack, So early on, we should not let taste take priority of all the "correct readings"?

I could see that because the wine is still ripe and has it's mellowing to do over time. If we keep the measurements correct, that's the best bet and our wine will have a taste that is generally expected?

Making wine from a kit is one thing because it can tell you the proper readings at a given point in time. However, I make more home-made wine from whatever recipes I'v scourage, and I find that there are all these directions.. but no specifics on readings... when etc.

Is there a way to know what it should be for Cherry... vs Cherry-Blackberry.... or Grape... or whatever. In all the exotic wines you have made... it seems that this would be the challenge... to know and understand the readings... what they should be and when.

I sometimes question what the "correct readings" are when I'm on my own...

Jason

[Rob C]

Jack, you said

The Aroma Wheel, which has been mentioned, is an insightful and wholly validated methodology for wine appreciation. It deals with finished wines, well aged and developed in their complexity. But being able to detect notes of asparagus, tobacco or black cherry in an aged wine will not help you turn a so-so young wine into one that will develop those notes.

And while I agree with that, IIRC, there are descriptor words on the wheel which correspond to the different aspects of the wine. This can help even in tasting during immediate post-fermentation. It helps because you will know that if something tastes "sour" it has to do with the acid, etc.

[Jack Keller]

Jason, you ask good questions and I'd like to respond to them all, but right now is not a good time. Therefore, I'll just respond to three.

- When to transfer from primary to secondary. Days vs. SG readings. If you wait too long and the SG gets below what is recommend... usually around .995 or so on many wines... does that really affect anything?

I usually transfer when the s.g. is around 1.015, but sometimes when a bit higher (1.020). I can't say why the latter, but usually the "feeling" is right for doing it and the fermentation is still mildly vigorous but without foam. However, since I keep track of days, I usually specify an average number or range of days (such as 5-7, or 7-10). I really do this out of consideration for newbies who might get scared off by numbers they don't understand and probably don't yet have a hydrometer. But doing it by the number of days is really flying by the seat of your pants; you don't have a clue where the wine really is and are just betting on averages. This will work more times than not, but if you have a very fast or very slow fermentation you might really be way off the ideal timetable for the wine in question.

- I have been getting TA readings along with SG before primary ferment. It seems important here. Are there other times when these readings are necessary? It seems when racking to secondary would be good to know... but how do you know where it should be at that time, and why?

Take all acid readings (TA and pH) before pitching the yeast. Once fermentation begins, CO2 will saturate the wine and combine with water to produce carbonic acid, which will throw off any subsequent measurements you make. Carbonic acid also forms when lowering tartrate anions with calcium carbonate, but carbonic acid dissipates as CO2 and water. So, measure TA and pH before pitching the yeast and after degassing a finished wine.

- Whipping the lees back into the wine during secondary and trying to push out CO2. Good for both oxidative and reductive wines?

I use lees stirring during aging, not during fermentation. Exception: when I transfer a wine higher than s.g. 1.015 to secondary, I stir the lees to get any settled live yeast (bottom feeders) into suspension. This ensures me a higher transferred yeast population. If you transfer too few yeast, they will start reproducing again after transfer and alcohol production will stop for a while. While reproducing, yeast will consume more nutrients than when simple converting sugar into alcohol and CO2, so adding nutients to a sluggish fermentation often helps.

Lees stirring during aging is good for the wine, but removing the airlock every 5 days invites problems if you aren't set up to deal with them. One way to do it is to have the carboy sitting inside a large trash bag. The bag can be collapsed around the base of the carboy. When time to stir the lees, raise the bag's opening high so the carboy is completely inside the bag. Gather the opening and fill the bag with CO2 from a tank, cartridge or can, which will push the oxygen out of the bag. Have a helper hold the bag open while you reach in with one hand and remove the airlock and with the other hand slide a wooden dowel into the carboy and quickly stir the lees. Remove the dowel and refit the airlock. The whole operation can be done quickly -- 15-20 seconds. Remember, if you breathe the CO2, your lungs will get as much oxygen as your wine -- none -- and you could pass out, so do this quickly while holding your breath. When done, collapse the bag again around the base of the carboy and turn on an oscillating or ceiling fan to dissipate the CO2.

[jwingo]

here is my 2 cents on the matter. I taste all allong the process. I taste when making the must, taking in mind that there is a ton of sugar that wont be there and many other flavors will come out. I taste after fermentation, knowing it is carbonated to high heck (carbonic acid) and real rough and young tasting. You have to kind of taste around the alchohol at that point to see what you are doing. I then taste at every racking just about to see how its developing and what it could use. Its hard to taste around certain things but with practice it gets easier.
Jeff