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Cross Polination


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#1 oldjenx

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Posted 14 March 2004 - 10:30 AM

4 years ago, I was given an assortment of 3 "seedless" grape vines. I planted them 8 feet apart on a 2 wire arbor with the first wire about 4 feet high and the top one nearly 6 feet. Unfortunately, I failed to record their varieties. These are prolific and, if we could just beat the racoons to them, we would have a lot of grapes to work with.

The problem is that they are not seedless. Every grape has at least one seed.

I also have two other varieties in the vicinity that are clones of vines I know to be over 100 years old. One is a purple grape that I assume is a Concord and the other is a pink grape. (Would anyone like to speculate on the variety) The pink is about 6 years old, and the purple is 4. These run on an arbor that is parallel to the seedless arbor about 40 feet away. Is it possible that the presence of these vines causes the "seedless" variety grapes to have seeds.

Thank you,

Ralph Jenkins

#2 WWJD

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Posted 14 March 2004 - 12:05 PM

It is quite possible that you have cross polination. I know from planting yellow and white sweetcorn that cross plination can occure when they are about that far apart (kinda hurts that sale unless you are going for bicolor corn sad.gif )

I think most recommend at least 100ft between seed and seedless, but it ultimatly depends on wind travel around polination times.

What area do you live in?? The pink may be a Catawba--A nice mild spicy grape, makes a pleasant Sunday afternoon type of wine smile.gif

#3 oldjenx

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Posted 14 March 2004 - 03:33 PM

Thanks for reply WWJD. I was afraid of that. However, the seedless are upstream of the prevailing breeze.

I am in south central Kentucky. The pink is from a vine about 30 miles south of here in Tennessee. I suspect it was not planted for its wine making virtue. Is Catawba often used as a table grape?

Ralph

#4 FreeWine

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Posted 15 March 2004 - 03:42 PM

Identifying grape varieties is real tough. Heck, just the name for the science of identifying grape varieites is tough (ampelography).

Could it perhaps be a Canadice Red Seedless Grape?

You might find more Help on the Ampelography Group on Yahoo!

Hope this helps!

Thomas Jones
Oklahoma Wine News Blog

#5 tazzidevil

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Posted 15 March 2004 - 08:30 PM

It dosn't seem logical to me for crosspolination to occur. It should produce true to the clone of wich it originates from. Crosspolination should be a problem only if you want to grow a new variety from the seed of your "seedless". I mean you've got grape A, next to it grape B, they produce fruit true to their clone. Only the seed should carry the new genetic code, not the berry itself. If you plant a seed from berry A it could well make an AB, new, crossed variety. Or a seed from B could make an AB also. I did not look into this, I might talk gibberish here huh.gif, correct me if I do, but crosspolination never happend in our vineyard and we've got a plot where the different grapes grow right next to each-other. Even in the garden when crosspolination occurs to say in dill with fennel, the dill IS dill and the fennel IS fennel this year. Only if I get the dill seed and plant it next year will the new plant be a cross wich is not a dill anymore.

#6 WWJD

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Posted 16 March 2004 - 07:20 AM

Tazzi, your correct about you genetics and the offspring genetics (punnet square), but for vegetables/fruits, it doesn't always follow the rational. Try planting yellow and white corn next to each other--they will cross pollinate and give you bicolored corn. Apperently the same can happen with seeded/seedles grapes.

A lot of things come into play--distance, wind, polination times, ect. For example, avoid crosspolination by planting varieties that pollinate a week or two apart--that is how I often avoided sweetcorn cross-pollination.

#7 Enchanted Hills Vineyard

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Posted 16 March 2004 - 08:52 AM

Just my 2 cents worth. I have never had this problem but most fruits need a seperate plliunator from what I have seen. When you plant blueberries you will need to plant a different type of blueberries inorder to get a good solid crop. The same is true for peaches, apples and many others. I am very curious about the seedless grapes since I have some reliant and seedless concords that are going into a plot close to my Chardonel and Frontenac. These will be for personal use but I don't want them to mess up the wine grapes. I will be contacting DR. Keith Steigler from Southwest Missouri State University. He studdies grapes and should have the answers that we are looking for...
Thanks for giving me something to think about.

Marc

#8 tazzidevil

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Posted 17 March 2004 - 02:52 AM

I'm realy curious now! smile.gif That is true with the fruits but a polinated Granny Smith by another tree is still a Granny Smith smile.gif
WWJD I agree about the corn, I've had similar bicolor corn. Something interesting must play a role here we don't know about yet...
Marc, thanks for asking an expert to enlighten us!

Cat

#9 oldjenx

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Posted 17 March 2004 - 04:01 AM

I read somewhere that all Granny Smiths were clones from a single tree. The seed will not produce a Granny Smith, and perhaps not make a tree.

Is it possible that true seedless grapes cannot be a female in breeding programs? Or, might the presence of male pollen stimulate the production of a seed? Of course I ask this for the sake of argument because that is the basic question in the first place.

There is a little more complexity to the original question. I planted 3 different seedless varieties on one arbor. Are they affecting one another? Surely not since they are sold that way.

I have been thinking about cutting down the seeded varieties and grafting a seedless on their roots.

Ralph

#10 starrfarms

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Posted 17 March 2004 - 12:08 PM

Hey guys, I've been lurking for a while and this topic got me off of the fence. I don't have any profesional experience in this, but have an observation to share. If you have ever gone to a big winery and vineyard, there are always several types of grapes growing side by side. I would think that if they cross pollinated and changed the flavor profile in the least, the vinyards would not plant them this way. Their livelyhood depends upon it.
Must be something specific about the grape that will not cross pollinate.

#11 cokoliso

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Posted 17 March 2004 - 01:01 PM

I have several varieties in my vineyard and see no funny grapes. I believe the seed is what is affected by cross pollination, not the fruit. That's why they graft grapevines and apple trees - the seed might be a half breed, but cuttings are clones.

#12 Enchanted Hills Vineyard

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Posted 18 March 2004 - 08:22 AM

OK this is what I found out by talking to 2 professors at different Universities. They both said the same thing so I will try and give a simple explination of their response. The vines genetics can never be changed by cross polination. It is possible to get 1 or maybe 2 soft seeds in a seedless grape that has a seeded varriety close by but a concord is still a concord. If these grapes were to be used to make wine, the seeds would not change the flavor of the wine unless you press too hard and accidently crush the seed. The seeds will probably not grow but if you were to plant them and get a couple to grow, you may have just started a new type of grape so don't use the seeds to clone the origional vine. Useing a cutting of the seedless will clone that seedless varriety without any genetic change. Hope this helps...
Marc

#13 tazzidevil

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Posted 18 March 2004 - 06:46 PM

QUOTE (Enchanted Hills Vineyard @ Mar 18 2004, 08:54 AM)
  The vines genetics can never be changed by cross polination.

OK this confirms my theory but then how is it possible to get 1 or 2 seeds in a seedless if it is close to a seeded variety? AND then plant that seed to get a new type of grape? If you have found some articles on the topic I would like to look into it. Just made me curious about the grape genetics smile.gif

#14 P Cuthbert

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Posted 19 March 2004 - 12:20 AM

It would seem to me that the seedless varieties would be able to fruit without being polinated, whereas the seeded variety need the polination to fruit.

This could also explain why there may be some "soft" seeds found in a seedless variety.

does this make sence to anyone besides me?

Pat

#15 oldjenx

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Posted 19 March 2004 - 06:52 AM

I would like to add that I have been disappointed with the seeds in my "seedless" grapes. Looks like I have 2 options.

1. Buy new seedless vines. I guess this is the thing to do if the old "seedless" is simply faulty.

2. Cut down the seeded variety nearby. This is the answer if the problem is cross pollination. If I go this route I will try my hand at grafting and put a seedless vine on the seeded variety root stock.

Please help me choose. Is it #1 or #2?

Ralph




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