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#1 wxtrendsguy

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Posted 26 April 2013 - 09:01 AM

This part of the forum has been too quiet lately so thought I'd throw out some questions.

 

In designing the winery I have been told by concrete contractors what they think is best for the floor.  4" or 6", fiber reinforced or steel wire grid, insulated floor or not?

 

Trying to get my final bids down and concrete is the final sub to talk too...


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#2 Calamity Cellars

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Posted 26 April 2013 - 11:02 AM

Let them know you will be driving a 10,000 lbs forklift on it.  You may not but it would be bad to have the floor crack if you did.


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#3 kakeeler

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Posted 26 April 2013 - 11:17 AM

We did a stain on top of ours, then an expoxy coating, and the stain has not held up, even though they said it would.  Calamity Cellars is correct in suggesting what equipment will be on it or dragged across it.   I'm thinking, now, that if we wanted beautiful floors, perhaps we should have put the stain IN the concrete, but the floors were already here, so it's what we had to work with.



#4 Memento

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Posted 26 April 2013 - 11:47 AM

some things depend on where you are also. Here in the northeast insulation and vapor barrier are almost essential. Steel reinforced still gets my vote. Make sure they pull the steel grid UP when they pour otherwise it easily gets pushed to the bottom and does not reinforce.

 

Radiant heating?

 

If you can afford it, go with 6" and definitely let the designer know that you will have tanks and possibly heavy equipment on it. They should be able to give you a psf (lbs/sq ft) load rating. It's good info to have for future expansion.

 

I used a surface hardener on mine. It reduces dusting and develops a shine on the surface of the concrete over time and use. If you may drag a pallet or something, it will hold up better but it doesn't strengthen the floor.

 

Make sure they don't pour it "loose". They like to water it down so that it flows quicker and easier but there is a range that is good. Depending on how big a pour, you may want to hire a concrete inspector. They will check slump, which determines how loose it is, and they can also check strength. They will fill a couple cylinders, then let them cure for 7, 14, and 28 days. At those times they will measure what the breaking force is. This is good insurance in the long run. If it fails, they did not meet the purchase requirements and you can have a leg to stand on if you are not happy. It's also pretty standard that they check the time the truck was loaded vs. the pour time. If it's too long, they send the truck back.

 

I've seen a lot of big contractors try to get away with stuff. The small guys typically don't since their reputation is personally on the line.



#5 glenn1959

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Posted 26 April 2013 - 12:51 PM

go for the 6", concrete is cheap, labor might not be, but generally if you are having the truck come to deliver, its just about the same cost whether it is 2/3's full or full.

 

A few years back when pouring a new garage floor, the mason said 2 yards is close 3 would be better, at that time concrete was $95 a yard, so i said go 3.  ended up with a 9" thick floor


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#6 Hammered

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Posted 26 April 2013 - 04:43 PM

I'd suggest a profile that starts with a capillary break -- about 6" of crushed compacted gravel, then a 10 mil vapor barrier, and if the space will be heated, either insulate down the inside of the foundation walls a couple of feet or install 2' wide rigid insulation around the perimeter of the exterior.  I'd recommend using the 6x6 1010 welded wire mesh for reinforcing; fibermesh tends to leave little fibers sticking out of the floor and makes getting a smooth finish more difficult.  Like Memento suggested be sure the mesh is held up off the ground with doby blocks or chairs to keep it in the middle of the slab. 

 

You may want to apply a curing agent to the wet surface, but be sure if you're going to install any kind of floor covering or coating to verify whether or not they recommend it. Some manufacturers will make you shot blast any sealer or curing agent off before installation.

 

I wouldn't go as thick as some of the folks above have suggested. A 4" slab with a mix of 5.5 or six sack, air entrainment, and 3,500 psi will perform just fine for your needs. Keep in mind that if you ever decide to install something (bathroom, floor drain etc.) in the floor later it will be very difficult to do so with a very thick slab.  The ACI has lots of good information on their website.


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#7 Wade's Wines

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Posted 26 April 2013 - 08:37 PM

Listen to Hammered.  Done right and let cure, a 4" slab will support just about anything.  Look at it like a floating cake pan or battle ship.  More area is far better than thicker.


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#8 wxtrendsguy

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Posted 27 April 2013 - 04:19 AM

Thanks Hammered,

 

We actually thought of the future plumbing needs...in this case we are going to box out the area and fill it with rigid foam panels and then pour a little skim coat over the top.  Here in step one the building needs to just be a farm storage building with no electrical or plumbing otherwise we trigger massive inspections, fees, site plans and so on.  So to the naked eye it will just look like the rest of the floor.  In the future if we want to install the bathroom we just chip up the floor in that spot and presto we are ready to go....


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#9 gregorio

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Posted 28 April 2013 - 11:30 AM

I wouldn't go as thick as some of the folks above have suggested. A 4" slab with a mix of 5.5 or six sack, air entrainment, and 3,500 psi will perform just fine for your needs. Keep in mind that if you ever decide to install something (bathroom, floor drain etc.) in the floor later it will be very difficult to do so with a very thick slab.  The ACI has lots of good information on their website.

Only if you trust your contractor and the cement supplier. 


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#10 Hammered

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Posted 28 April 2013 - 01:57 PM

Every delivery ticket should have the information I described, and the batch plant usually takes samples of most mixes for their own protection.  It's easy for the layman to just ask the driver upon arrival to show you precisely what I described above and what is the mix.

 

Another approach would be to call the sales rep at the pre-mix plant.  He/she should be very well versed in their products and could give you some good, reliable and conservative suggestions on what to specify (for free.)


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#11 gregorio

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Posted 28 April 2013 - 02:03 PM

True.  Just be sure that you have the ability to refuse the load without penalty if it fails to meet your standards. 


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#12 garlandr

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Posted 28 April 2013 - 07:57 PM

Ok to add to the concrete topic.
I want to know what is the best location for the drain. Most of the local wineries have a trench with grate covering.
I've seen the drain in the middle of the tanks. I've also seen it located on the outer edges behind the tanks. Is there one location better than another ?

#13 gregorio

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Posted 28 April 2013 - 08:39 PM

If I had to do it over again, I would place the drains behind the barrels along the concrete walls.  Having the drain in the middle of the aisle absolutely sucks.  Moving the barrels over the grate on a pallet jack is very unstable and difficult.


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