19 replies to this topic

[Needshelp]

I'm starting a batch of plum wine soon, and would like to make it with all juice- little to no water added. I've read about the acidity, and it seems I have a penchant for fermenting things with high acidity. My last few batches were cherry, cranberry, blackberry and most recently Mustang grape (beginning PH was 2.48!). Anyway, I know a little about dealing with that. What I would like to know is a rule of thumb for pounds per gallon using pure fruit and no water. Anyone have experience? Also, I thought I read somewhere that someone fermented their plum on the skins AND seeds. I can see the skins being a matter of preference but was surprised to see the comment about the seeds. All I've read is that the seeds would ruin the wine. Thoughts and experiences?

[S Hofner]

I have done an all juice plum fermented on skins and seeds. The acid was very high. The skins and seeds did not produce and bitter or astringent flavors. The only thing wrong with it is I had to back sweeten with a lot of sugar to tame the acidity. I believe I was some where around 15 lbs to the gallon. However, that varies widely with the different types of plums. I used a small Japanese plum. In retrospect, I should have been a little more aggressive with the calcium carbonate on the front side. I am not doing a plum this year, but will again next year. When next I do it, the only two thing I will do differently is use more calcium carbonate and use Maurvin-B yeast as opposed to the 71-B I used. The Maurvin is suppose to metabolize even more malic acid then 71-B.

[Green Zeus]

We made plum wine from golden plums and we used the skins and seeds. The plums were frozen, which yielded a lot of juice. We adjusted the PH as we always do on all our ferments.

The resulting wine was very excelent---good flavor and nicely balanced,requiring only nominal sugar to sweeten.

[Needshelp]

Excellent info as always. I'm going to do a PH test on a sample of these today to see where I stand. I don't have any Maurvin-B and after a quick search don't see anywhere to get it. I've been hearing about it on the board though. I do have some 71B on hand and if the acid isn't too high I may just use it. My wife and I like acidic wines anyway. I believe I will go ahead and ferment on the seeds. I'm not sure what kind of plums these are, but they sure are juicy! On the topic of calcium carbonate- Have you experimented with using more than the recommended dosage to reduce PH more than 0.3/gal? If so what were the results? I know I've read not to try to reduce it more than that, but I think I've seen people say they've reduced it more with no ill effects. Thoughts? Oh, and any trouble with clearing? I've heard plum can be difficult. Did you use fining agents or just patience? I'm getting the patience thing down- don't rush it!

[sal]

Maurvin B available at www.thevintnervault.com. It is in 500gram brick for about $ 25 plus shipping. Good Luck

[dagobob]

I've made several batches of 100% plum wine using very sweet, very juicy, red pulp Santa Rosa plums. Acidity hasn't been a problem. I usually let the plums fall to the ground, then I know that they are very ripe, then wash them off and give them a spritz of K-meta. Then I freeze the plums, upon thawing, I squeeze the pulp from the skins and pit. But some skin and pits inevitably get in to the party.
Although I think the wine tastes OK and is very drinkable, it's not great and I find that the skins add too much bitterness (tannins?). Test your plums, eat just some skins, if they taste OK to you then you are probably alright, but I've never eaten a plum skin that wasn't bitter or sour. Maybe I just never had the right plums.

[Needshelp]

Maurvin B available at www.thevintnervault.com. It is in 500gram brick for about $ 25 plus shipping. Good Luck

That's lots of yeast! Thanks for the tip.

I've made several batches of 100% plum wine using very sweet, very juicy, red pulp Santa Rosa plums. Acidity hasn't been a problem. I usually let the plums fall to the ground, then I know that they are very ripe, then wash them off and give them a spritz of K-meta. Then I freeze the plums, upon thawing, I squeeze the pulp from the skins and pit. But some skin and pits inevitably get in to the party.
Although I think the wine tastes OK and is very drinkable, it's not great and I find that the skins add too much bitterness (tannins?). Test your plums, eat just some skins, if they taste OK to you then you are probably alright, but I've never eaten a plum skin that wasn't bitter or sour. Maybe I just never had the right plums.

That's a good point about the skins dagobob. I'll test some, but I've eaten these before and never thought they were bitter. Of course, at the time I wasn't planning to make wine with them.

[Needshelp]

Ok, all 50 +/- pounds of the plums are in the primary. Initial testing gives a PH of 3.45 but a TA of 2.28... I thought my Mustangs were bad at 1.5. Does this seem reasonable? I don't think I'm doing my math wrong. Maybe my testing equipment is bad but my PH meter is only a few months old. Oh, and these are Santa Rosa plums.

[saramc]

Are you using fresh solution for your testing equipment?

Also on the topic of skins in the ferment....I would recommend no skins, or very few skins, because they will provide a bitterness to your wine. Sometimes it is noted when the wine is young and other times it is noted as the wine ages. All about the phenolics.

I learned this when I made a plum cordial (brandy) and left the skins intact. My cordial is now 3+ years old is continues to get better with every passing quarter. But when I made it again, I left the skins off and the cordial was a winner right out of the gate at 1 year. (Cannot recall the type of plums used, but they had a dark red-purple skin with a beet colored super sweet flesh...with time the liqueur became golden--well 18 months later. My mother-in-law uses it for cough syrup---alcohol for medicinal purposes only she says.). Just my two cents.

On the calcium carbonate dosing, I do believe it was Scott who said in Wade's Big Blackberry thread??, that you can in fact exceed the recommended maximum dose on calcium carbonate.

[Needshelp]

My solution is about 5 months old. Maybe that's it. I went ahead and used the skins and seeds. They're in a strainer though, and I thought about pressing the juice and removing the skins and seeds halfway through ferment. That way I could get some of the tannic qualities, but avoid too much bitterness. However, Scott said his fermented on both and had no bitterness. Guess it depends on the plum. Either way, if it's bitter up front I'll age it and hope it rounds out. If not, I'll drink it young.

That's where I saw it, Wades blackberry post. Maybe Scott can chime in and tell us just how far you can go.

As for the PH 3.45, I know that's in the range but it's still a little tart on the tongue. (which I kinda like)

I'll be using 71B.

[S Hofner]

I think the amount of calcium carbonate that can be used is Dependant on the fruit. Also, it is my opinion that you can be much more heavy handed with it on the front side then post ferment. When I have exceeded the recommended does, it was to adjust the pH, not the TA. Again, personal opinion, I think the pH has a huge effect on how strong the acidity seems when tasted. If your numbers are correct, I would use the calcium carbonate, but not let the pH get higher then say 3.5 to 3.55. Greenzeus know a lot more on this then me and hopefully will chime in.

As to skins and seeds with plums. Another opinion, I think the darker the plums, the more astringency in the the skins and seeds. The Japanese plums I use are small, like a third smaller then a egg. So, I have a significantly larger ratio of S&S to pulp then compared to the big, almost black looking plums you see in a super market. But, I have not had any problems with bitterness or astringency in the two vintages I have made from these plums. When ripe, they are a light to medium red. Greenzeus I think uses golden plums on S&S with no ill effects.

[Needshelp]

On calcium carbonate, I think my TA numbers may be off because my NaOH solution is old. I don't think the PH is off though, not by much anyway. I'll add a little chalk today and boost the PH slightly. Might ad a pint of water too. Two pints out of what should yield 3.5 gallons won't be bad. I currently have a batch of Mustang grape brewing, which started at PH 2.45. Got it up to 3.0 with chalk and a small amount of water (2.5 gallons out of 8). I tried to use as little water as possible but those Mustangs are so acidic I'm afraid it might be good as a paint stripper. May have to blend it with another batch that uses more water to make it drinkable. However, at first racking yesterday it tasted really good. That is until the acid melted my taste buds...

These plums are also smaller than the supermarket variety, but not as small as you are describing. I plan on bulk aging this for quite a while, so if it turns out bitter when young that's fine, but hopefully not. I'm sure back sweetening will help with some bitterness.

Really wishing I had a supply of Muarvin now...

[Needshelp]

One last question- Suggested ABV?

[Green Zeus]

We have always adjusted our acid all the way with calcium carbonate with no resulting chalky flavor. However, the lowest PH we ever started with on any fruit was about 2.8 or 2.9 So I can't really say what would happen if you start out with a 2.45 PH and try adjusting all the way with the carbonate. You said you like acidic wines, so maybe a PH of 3.2 would be to your liking. You'd use a little less carbonate shooting for 3.2 rather than going for the 3.4 Our plum was adjusted to 3.4

I don't have enough experience with plums and the different varieties to comment on the skins. The only reason we used the skins on the golden plum was because when they were given to us, they were already frozen. Not a lot of choice there in trying to decide to use skins or not!!!

It sounds like those mustang grapes would be really good blended with other things---did you ever try oaking it?

[Green Zeus]

On ABV------all our wines are 12 to 12.5%