29 replies to this topic

[tom sawyer]

I went on a kit spree in '09 (30+ kits) and the result is a lot of wine in the basement that is now three years old. I'm starting to taste more caramel type notes in several of these and I wonder if this is an indication that oxidation is setting in. I always added additional kmeta but never checked SO2 levels. I also started out using agglomerated corks but at some point I went to better corks. The wine is stored in a cool place that runs 60-65F year-round, a little warmer than optimal but its the best I can do.

Just thought I'd pass this on, the wine is still drinkable but I feel like some of the wines are on borrowed time and I don't know if I'll ge them drank before they are truly over the hill. Everyone thinks that age is going to make wine get better and better but I'm finding out now that at least for my particular conditions two years is a peak.

[JoeyNaples]

Invite us all over, we will offer our opinions and assist in any way necessary.

[JW Austin]

I will definitely stay tuned to this thread, Lennie. My plan is to have enough wine made that we won't start drinking a batch until about 2.5 years. I may have to rethink that if the wine won't keep improving for 4 years or so.

[JW Austin]

I also started out using agglomerated corks but at some point I went to better corks..

If the bottles are stored on their sides or upside down, it seems to me that any problems with the corks would be evidenced by wine leaking out a little bit, to be replaced by air. Am I off base here?

Your storage conditions sound just fine to me, Lennie. Which kits have the caramel flavor? Maybe not the 16L ones?

[jbo_c]

The oldest kit wine I've had to date was six years. Both were Cellar Craft Signature with grapeskins.

The Rosso Fortissimo was definitely past "prime" in my eyes but still tasty.

The Barbera still seemed to have all of its brightness.

I haven't had any kits noticeably improve after three years. The RF seemed to be at its peak in years 2-5 or so. Once a kit hits the two year mark in my cellar, I quit consciously trying to "save" it and just enjoy at will.

My cellar temps run closer to 70 just for reference. Cooler cellars might stretch this out some, but I would not expect any kit to improve much after 2-3 years. I don't see why they wouldn't last as long as any other wine a good cellar temps, though.
Jbo

[JW Austin]

Once a kit hits the two year mark in my cellar, I quit consciously trying to "save" it and just enjoy at will.

Good food for thought Jbo. In my case, I have 1100 bottles aging. Between our drinking about 5 bottles a week and giving some away that would be about 3.5 years worth. I have 10 kits waiting to be started. (Got a little carried away with the limiteds.) I WAS planning to start them 4 at a time, once every 3 months with 3 months in barrels. I have 2 11G barrels. The plan was to buy a couple of CC Amarones, which is SWMBO's favorite, to go with the last two CC LR kits next February. If I kept to that schedule I would have about 1300 bottles in the cellar which is probably too many, based on this discussion.

I think I will space the kits out to every 4 months. That is a lot closer to our consumption rate. So in my case it isn't so much holding off on drinking a batch until the 2 year point as not making too much wine in a year. Same principle, though. Hopefully we will finish each batch by the 3 year point.

[Bar Barrique]

It is my opinion that concentrate does not age as well as juice, so; kits that contain a lot of concentrate do not age as well as kits that contain less of it. Concentrate is a suspect in producing vanilla flavours as well. I think that my premium kits are generally at their best at 2 to 3 years, and, sometimes before 2 years for maximum complexity.
While I am a committed wine kit maker, the major market for these kits is the "brew on premise" industry in Canada, and, it is understandable that the kit manufacturers generally formulate their kits for early consumption.
The limited edition kits have often proven to be the best kits for extended aging in my experience.
I guess that I would add that in the commercial wine world; many producers make wines that are designed to be enjoyed sooner rather than later, aging them (think South American), is a waste of time as they turn soft, and, flabby.
If you have made too much wine, I'm reasonably sure that you can get some help from friends, and, family to insure that it doesn't go to waste.

Cheers;

Bar

[tom sawyer]

Interesting stuff. The wines I've noticed this in have been premium kits. There may be procedures I've used that contributed too, aeration at the wrong time or something along those lines. I've always added extra kmeta but maybe not enough for a long storage. I've also stored my wine upside down or on its side so that hasn't contributed to this. I think a cheap cork can let in a little more air than a higher quality one, without leaking wine.

I've been giving more of the stuff away lately and will continue to do so. I've also been making more kits and I'll simply keep the shelf life in mind as I go forward. I had read of this but honestly I erroneously thought that more age would continue to benefit the wine.

[JW Austin]

The only batch I managed to keep any of for 3 years has been a Showcase Red Mtn Cab, Lennie. We drank the last bottle on the 3 year anniversary of pitching yeast on that kit and it was delicious. I won't have another 3 year old bottle until next October and that will be a Showcase Yakima Merlot, then in November an MM Masters Valle de Sol.

I hope we can keep this thread alive by reporting tasting notes of specific wines at the 3 year old mark. I have a Crushendo Shiraz and a Meglioli OVZ which I would like to wait until 3 years to start and 4 years to finish if it is likely that they will be excellent at the 4 year old point.

[FineWino]

I have had the opposite experience. I began making kits in 2007, and my first reds were the Limited Editions released in 2008. They were all bottled in 2008 and I tasted from time to time to check progress. It is only in the last 9-12 months that they have hit their sweet spot, 3+ years after bottling. I'm enjoying an MM Meglioli Barolo right now that was bottled in Aug 2008. It's the best it's ever been and I'm happy to have a case remaining.

If all of the bottles are exhibiting the characteristic you described, it's probably something in your procedures. A cork quality issue usually has a lot of bottle to bottle variation.

Some things that come to mind:

1. How many times do you rack?
2. Do you filter?
2.5. Could you be introducing air when filtering or racking?
3. Do you add the extra K-meta immediately before bottling?
4. Do you use #8 or #9 corks?

[Bar Barrique]

I have been testing my wines for S02 for the last 18 months or so, and, my methods have generally been proven, In any case, I can taste oxidation in wine.
My CC Red Mountain Cab. was started on Oct. 4, 2008, and, it seems to be an exception as it has continued to improve to the 3 year mark or so (note that CC stated that it could improve for up to 5 years).
I think that wine kits are formulated with juices, and, concentrates of varying aging potential; so results will vary from kit to kit (and, vintage to vintage).
I am not trying to be negative about wine kits in any way, I'm simply saying that the world of commercial wine including kits is focused on providing finished wine in the shortest time possible, and, this can shorten the aging potential of the finished wine.

Bar

[Bar Barrique]

I have had the opposite experience. I began making kits in 2007, and my first reds were the Limited Editions released in 2008. They were all bottled in 2008 and I tasted from time to time to check progress. It is only in the last 9-12 months that they have hit their sweet spot, 3+ years after bottling. I'm enjoying an MM Meglioli Barolo right now that was bottled in Aug 2008. It's the best it's ever been and I'm happy to have a case remaining.

If all of the bottles are exhibiting the characteristic you described, it's probably something in your procedures. A cork quality issue usually has a lot of bottle to bottle variation.

Some things that come to mind:

1. How many times do you rack?
2. Do you filter?
2.5. Could you be introducing air when filtering or racking?
3. Do you add the extra K-meta immediately before bottling?
4. Do you use #8 or #9 corks?

As I stated in my previous post S02 levels do not seem to be an issue in my wines, and, I am a racking minimalist.
I think that as Jim posted; comments about specific kits may be helpful, though vintages, and, formulations vary.

Bar

[JW Austin]

I am not trying to be negative about wine kits in any way, I'm simply saying that the world of commercial wine including kits is focused on providing finished wine in the shortest time possible, and, this can shorten the aging potential of the finished wine.

Bar

With this factor in mind, what would you guess is the aging potential of WE's new Int'l w/ Grape Skins kits? I'd like to try a couple, but my consumption plan would put them about 2 years old before we started drinking them. Hmm.

[Juniper Hill]

I don't have many kits that are at the three year mark. My RMC is 2 years and drinking very, very well. WE Amarone is 3 years and has continued to improve (not oxidized IMO). I also have some bottles of a WE Crussendo Supertuscan which are three years old and still need more time to soften up...tannins dominating the fruit, and I didn't even tweek this one.

Neil

[tom sawyer]

I started using a good grade of cork fairly early on so I really don't think that is contributing significantly. One thing I've done quite a bit of is to put the reds in a small barrel for three months and this is a likely culprit. It really makes a kit ready to drink earlier but I suppose it might take some life off the back end. I wouldn't have changed what I did but I suppose I should've matched production more to consumption.