96 replies to this topic

[fmestas]

Can't be bothered: a kit wine won best of show white. It didn't get that for being free of flaws, it got that for beating hundreds and hundreds of other entries on objective criteria, in a category that included wines made from all manner of vinifera material.

Since you can't be bothered I will help you out by reposting it here:

This is the main reason I don't give any regard to wine contest results. Just because a wine has no faults or flaws does not mean it is good... Conversely, many "technically" flawed wines (hint of brett, hint of VA, non "correct" color) can be extremely good. Kit wines do well in competitions because they are easy to make without flaws or faults (not to say that they can not also be good).

Whether a wine is good, IMO, is really a matter of personal preference...

As you can see I am not attacking kits, but rather the whole premise of wine competitions in general. Maybe before jumping to conclusions and commenting on a 4 page thread, you should bother to read through it. The fact that the wine won best of show says a lot about that specific wine and the judges who obviously liked it, but not much about kits in general or whether they should be in their own category.

[fmestas]

So, unless I'm missing something here (a good possibility), if I win a medal at a wine competition, I can say that I made a wine relatively "free of faults". It doesn't mean I made a wine that tastes particularly compelling.

Perhaps I'm confusing the purpose of a "wine competition" with "wine reviews"?

I am seriously confused by this.

When I visit a winery and I see that a particular wine of theirs won a medal, they are bragging that they (professionals) made a wine that isn't corked, smell like cat piss, or have any other "faults"? That's it?

Or are the objectives of professional competitions different?

Most wine competitions use some variation of the UC Davis 20 point scale. This scale was developed in the 60s and 70s, during a period in Calfornia where flawed wines were much more prevalent. It was created as a way to help the wine industry with quality control rather than to comunicate with consumers about the attributes of any specific wine. For example, a score of 15/20 means that the wine is commercially viable without any flaws or faults. It also means that the wine gets a bronze medal.

The 100 point scale, on the other hand, was invented by Robert Parker specifically for recomending wines to consumers. While I agree that the point score is subjective, if paired with a well written description and knowledge of what the reviewer tends to like, I think it is much more useful in deciding whether I will like a wine than any competition medal.

[Tim Vandergrift]

It's just as easy to infect a kit wine with Brett or Volatile Acidity as it is any other wine--clumsy winemakers are everywhere. Your premise is invalid.

When I became a wine judge 25 years ago I was taught that due to a lack of flaws, water could technically achieve 11 points for being free of flaws. 11 points won't get a medal at Winemaker.

But both points are moot. Without kit wine entries there would never have been an amateur wine competition as large as the Winemaker Magazine event. And if they tried to ghetto-ize wine kits by making them compete separately from grape and juice wines (not that they would, because it's not a very good idea on any level), every kit manufacturer would withdraw support for the contest simultaneously. Not out of anger or peevishness, but because the contest would no longer validate the principles of open, fair competition for every entry.

Anyway, I'm not chuffed about it. Nobody has made a cogent argument that supports the idea of a separate category for kit wines.

[bzac]

what qualities of the wine are being judged?

here are a couple of pdf's of information on how wines are scored , there are several versions used in competitions , I'm not sure exactly how winemaker mag does theres since its not conducted under the AWS oversite but it would be some varition of the attached.

There are commonly 20 , 25 and 100 point scales used.

The thing I struggle with in competitions is the sheer volume of flights you have to taste , and the winemaker mag has more entries than most . I find when judgeing my pallet is shot after about 150 tastes . I just wouldn't have the stamina to be able to judge a comp like the winemaker mag one.

Attached Files

•  how_we_rate_wines.pdf   58.42K   8 downloads
•  WJCJudgingSheetFinalSpring2005_2__1_.pdf   22.74K   12 downloads

[lodestone]

Dan,

This doesn't sound like you! Hmmm?

I'm just asking questions, trying to understand something I know little about. Not trying to take sides in the "kit vs. non kit" battle. I just looked at BZac's 2nd attachment, the Canadian Wine Judges sheet, and that is really about what I thought the criteria would look like. It makes sense to me, anyway.

Is that, or something similar, the same judging sheet used in the WM competition?

I didn't realize that theoretically, anyway, everyone could win a bronze, if all of the wine presented scored the same. In essence, it is not "one wine against the field" like a golf tournament, it is "each wine against Par", and your score relative to par dictates your grade, not your score relative to the field. That's fine with me, I just didn't understand that.

And there are categories, and gradations that score not just faults, but exceptional qualities, and attempt to quantify quality ( a dicey task, but laudable and worthwhile).

When I visit a winery and see that one of their wines "Won a Bronze" at some competition, I had thought that meant that in some category at least, they were awarded "3rd Place", out of all of the entries. Now I know differently.

If I were the winery, and using my award as a marketing tool (which I would do), it would be just fine with me if that's what my public assumed. I wouldn't go out of my way to clarify things.

[gregorio]

Zac,
Typically in larger competitions, judging takes place over several days. Each judge is given X number of samples every Y hours each day. 8 wines every 2 hours with no more than 32 per day is what I'm seeing in a lot of cases.

[jwalker1140]

It's just as easy to infect a kit wine with Brett or Volatile Acidity as it is any other wine--clumsy winemakers are everywhere. Your premise is invalid.

Respectfully, I disagree. It's just as easy to burn a batch of Toll House cookies as it is a batch of homemade, yet you would never see the Toll House "baker" enter their batch in the local bake-off.

Apparently I also don't get the point of these competitions. If it's just to recognize the best wines that get submitted, then surely it's ok to just buy bulk wine, blend and bottle. If not, then why not? Commercial wineries do this. I always assumed the point was to recognize the abilities of the winemaker as expressed through his or her wines. In which case, and in the case of kit wines specifically, I believe that most of the credit is owed to the kit manufacturer rather than the guy who follows the instruction manual. Just my $0.02.

[gregorio]

yet you would never see the Toll House "baker" enter their batch in the local bake-off.

So you think.....

[D&S]

Are individuals associated with a kit manufacturer permitted to judge the WM competitions? If so, what percentage of the judges fit this category? Are they even required to disclose this information?

[bzac]

Zac,
Typically in larger competitions, judging takes place over several days. Each judge is given X number of samples every Y hours each day. 8 wines every 2 hours with no more than 32 per day is what I'm seeing in a lot of cases.

I had dinner at the table of Gene Spaziani and one of the other judges tables at a previous WM conference , they both described it as an endurance event with wines tasted en mass.

[gregorio]

That would certainly diminish the value of the awards IMO. We are very Selective when entering. This detail is among the highest on our list.

[Tim Vandergrift]

Are individuals associated with a kit manufacturer permitted to judge the WM competitions?

Judge? I'm not even allowed to compete, in case that influences the competition.

[lodestone]

Judge? I'm not even allowed to compete, in case that influences the competition.

I'd say you were well represented.

[WineMan2008]

Judge? I'm not even allowed to compete, in case that influences the competition.

Tim,

You were very informative in reference to this topic. Thanks for explaining your position on this subject. I hope we can now get back to the reason we visit here, and that is make great wines from whatever Mother Nature provides us with,

Steve

[kakeeler]

We started with kits. It spread to wanting a vineyard. We bought land. We spend every night reading, making gopher baskets, tying vines, retrying, worrying about insects, snakes, canopies, netting, when to pick, when storms are coming, what the sugar is. Now we have to do wine better. I think that whatever we all choose to do, it is the pursuit of excellence, whether it is making a wine from our grapes, buying grapes from another vineyard, or buying a kit. I don't know whether our wine will ever be good. We keep trying, keep learning, and maybe there will be a wine with which we're pleased. In the meantime, we will never forget all the great people we've met, the things we've learned, and the great adventure it's been -- all the while, hoping for that perfect glass of wine. Kudos to everyone who tries. It's so much better than not trying anything new. Everyone measures success differently.