24 replies to this topic

[jhrusky]

Hi. New to posting here but have been lurking for awhile.

I am currently trying to learn all I can about setting up a winery. There are no competing wineries of
my location within nearly 100 miles for some reason, and perhaps that is because most of the soil has
much clay in it in the vast majority of areas. However, the terroir where I am produces phenominally
great fruit and, of course, wines. I have been producing wine for the past 3 years and it is very, very
good.

That said, the bug has bitten me and I am quite interested in starting a winery. I realize there is a
rather large startup cost to do so and am prepared for that. What I don't fully understand is how to
determine what size and how many tanks (and other equipment) a person needs to produce X number of gallons
of wine annually. Is there some formula or some place to gather this knowledge prior to ordering and
setting up equipment? I will most likely use a consultant in obtaining the best equipment to get the
biggest bang for the buck, but prior to hiring that consultant, I would like to put together as much as
I can to know what exactly I am going to need.


Thank you.

[Howie]

Hi and welcome to the forum. I don't own a winery, but wrote a feasibility study of opening a local winery as part of a college thesis 30 years ago. Your questions are too broad and if you want to get some constructive feedback, you'll have to supply us with more info.
What is your location?
How much wine do you plan to make?
What product mix? (focus on one or two varieties and styles or many varieties and styles? Reds? Whites? Rosé? Dessert? Sparkling? etc. These require different equipment.

[sal]

this is wwhat if found by google
eb1996_051.pdf

Attached Files

•  eb1996_051.pdf   237.27K   52 downloads

[saramc]

jhrusky,
Most important: is it legal where you are?

[jhrusky]

jhrusky,
Most important: is it legal where you are?

Yes, it is. (Wisconsin)

[jhrusky]

this is wwhat if found by google
eb1996_051.pdf

Thank you. I found the same document and it really caused me to have more questions than it answered.
One of the things that just didn't make sense to me was their claimed average cost per case of a 2000 case winery . . . $12.97/bottle?
That sounds awfully steep to me.

[jhrusky]

Hi and welcome to the forum. I don't own a winery, but wrote a feasibility study of opening a local winery as part of a college thesis 30 years ago. Your questions are too broad and if you want to get some constructive feedback, you'll have to supply us with more info.
What is your location?
How much wine do you plan to make?
What product mix? (focus on one or two varieties and styles or many varieties and styles? Reds? Whites? Rosé? Dessert? Sparkling? etc. These require different equipment.

Thank you.
I'm located in Wisconsin. We are currently growing Frontenac & Concord grapes for the red, and Brianna and Elvira for our white. We're going to be trying some other varieties as well.
We will stick with Red and White wines, no dessert nor sparkling. At this point, we are unsure how much we want to make, although we'd like it to climb to that 20,000 gallon mark or above.


My dream is to build a winery where people can stop in to buy our wines, we can do events, music, perhaps even a limited small Italian deli. I've been in business and customer service all
my life so I understand what that all takes and, frankly, am quite good at it. The scary part is being able to compete with the $6 and $8 bottles in the larger grocery stores... I'm assuming
that may be tough until one reaches a specific size.

Since I want a destination place where people come to taste wine, see our facilities, enjoy a bottle in a park-like setting, listen to jazz or some such music at night with a bottle and a snack, do a summer barbecue with a bottle, etc., it's going to take a tad bit more than a 1000 gallon starting measure in order to break even. I am assuming we can purchase grapes by the ton as our commercial vineyard is being planted and then maturing over the first 3-4 years.

I can figure what it will take in terms of space and dollars to build a high-end visitor and tasting complex... what I don't quite understand is what it will take in terms of equipment and buildings to produce 1000 gallons, or 5000 gallons, or 10000 gallons of product. Of course, we'll want to have a variety of wines on our shelves and for our tastings as do other wineries we have visited ... probably at least 8 - 12 different wines people can taste and purchase.

I guess that's a start as to what I am looking for --- I am open to comments, suggestions, criticism, or anything that might be of help.

Thanks!

[sal]

Back to the legal issue. If in a rural setting agricultural zoned. there should be no probloem licensing a winery. If urban within city limits, trouble can brew. A special use permit is usually available. visit with you city planning department. once this is settled get the federal and state license. Will need to get a bond for federal and most likley state.
Once these license are obtained , you can get serious about making wine. Wines cannot be produced for sale un til these licenses are obtained.

As far as equipment and building sizes, visit wineries around the state. browse equipment suppliers for standard size tanks and pumps. Both fixed and variable size anks will be required. For whites you will need cooling jacket. A sample calculation, a 1000 liter tank(all tanks are in liters) is about 265 gallons. takes about 4000lbs of grapes to do 265 gallons. so for 1000 gallons need 4 tanks plus one, the plus one if for racking one tank at a time of the other four. Bins for fermentation take about 1200 lbs each, to accomplish 4000lbs need four bins. Sise of crusher is dependant on how long a periodyou want to spend crushing 4000 lbs. Also purchase of a bladder press or hydraluic press is dependant on on long you want to spend on these activities. Crusher/destemmer size, bladder press size, and pumps size is dependant on starting point. 1000gallons start is about 425 cases. I would start at this level and then get larger. not all wine needs to be from grapes, juice can be purchased which will allow a twice or more a year fermentation. One at grape crush, the others as juice is pruchased and wine developed. this will allow stagering of wine production.
visit www.winebusiness.com for listings of used wine poduction equipment as well as grapes, juice and finished wine.

[gregorio]

Thank you. I found the same document and it really caused me to have more questions than it answered.
One of the things that just didn't make sense to me was their claimed average cost per case of a 2000 case winery . . . $12.97/bottle?
That sounds awfully steep to me.

That's about right.

[gregorio]

Thank you.
I'm located in Wisconsin. We are currently growing Frontenac & Concord grapes for the red, and Brianna and Elvira for our white. We're going to be trying some other varieties as well.
We will stick with Red and White wines, no dessert nor sparkling. At this point, we are unsure how much we want to make, although we'd like it to climb to that 20,000 gallon mark or above.


My dream is to build a winery where people can stop in to buy our wines, we can do events, music, perhaps even a limited small Italian deli. I've been in business and customer service all
my life so I understand what that all takes and, frankly, am quite good at it. The scary part is being able to compete with the $6 and $8 bottles in the larger grocery stores... I'm assuming
that may be tough until one reaches a specific size.

Since I want a destination place where people come to taste wine, see our facilities, enjoy a bottle in a park-like setting, listen to jazz or some such music at night with a bottle and a snack, do a summer barbecue with a bottle, etc., it's going to take a tad bit more than a 1000 gallon starting measure in order to break even. I am assuming we can purchase grapes by the ton as our commercial vineyard is being planted and then maturing over the first 3-4 years.

I can figure what it will take in terms of space and dollars to build a high-end visitor and tasting complex... what I don't quite understand is what it will take in terms of equipment and buildings to produce 1000 gallons, or 5000 gallons, or 10000 gallons of product. Of course, we'll want to have a variety of wines on our shelves and for our tastings as do other wineries we have visited ... probably at least 8 - 12 different wines people can taste and purchase.

I guess that's a start as to what I am looking for --- I am open to comments, suggestions, criticism, or anything that might be of help.

Thanks!

As for competing with the $5 grocery store wines, forget it. You are a NOT a bulk winemaker. You are a passionate craftsman who painstakingly creates poetry in a glass each vintage. You want 80% of your sales to be on site or direct mail or you will never make it. Remember, the grocer paid $3.25 for the $5 bottle.

[jhrusky]

Back to the legal issue. If in a rural setting agricultural zoned. there should be no probloem licensing a winery. If urban within city limits, trouble can brew. A special use permit is usually available. visit with you city planning department. once this is settled get the federal and state license. Will need to get a bond for federal and most likley state.
Once these license are obtained , you can get serious about making wine. Wines cannot be produced for sale un til these licenses are obtained.

Thank you... rural area zoned agricultural so I do not anticipate problems. However, prior to obtaining these licenses, I want to ensure I understand all costs going in so I'm not missing something important and more than trivial.

As far as equipment and building sizes, visit wineries around the state. browse equipment suppliers for standard size tanks and pumps. Both fixed and variable size anks will be required. For whites you will need cooling jacket. A sample calculation, a 1000 liter tank(all tanks are in liters) is about 265 gallons. takes about 4000lbs of grapes to do 265 gallons. so for 1000 gallons need 4 tanks plus one, the plus one if for racking one tank at a time of the other four. Bins for fermentation take about 1200 lbs each, to accomplish 4000lbs need four bins. Sise of crusher is dependant on how long a periodyou want to spend crushing 4000 lbs. Also purchase of a bladder press or hydraluic press is dependant on on long you want to spend on these activities. Crusher/destemmer size, bladder press size, and pumps size is dependant on starting point. 1000gallons start is about 425 cases. I would start at this level and then get larger. not all wine needs to be from grapes, juice can be purchased which will allow a twice or more a year fermentation. One at grape crush, the others as juice is pruchased and wine developed. this will allow stagering of wine production.
visit www.winebusiness.com for listings of used wine poduction equipment as well as grapes, juice and finished wine.

I have contacts in the dairy industry, so I should be able to obtain good quality used tanks, at least open top tanks for fermentations of reds. Those would be the same type of S.S. vats they dairies make cheese in.
I never thought about juice, but if it can be purchased in bulk that certainly interests me. I would like to produce some fruit wines like apple and cherry, since they are both grown in the state (door county area). And, of course, twice a year fermentation is very interesting to split up usage of equipment as we are growing.

We always visit wineries everywhere we travel but I've never actually talked to them to find out information about starting a winery as I always assumed they were like most other businesses and would conceal information, not be forthcoming, etc., due to not wanting more competition. I guess I should at least attempt and find out what information they do give.

[Howie]

I agree with Greg's advice. I know a failed winemaker who tried to compete with the big boys. I also know another failed winemaker who tried to succeed by only offering wine from one grape - Pinot Noir. Here is a link to a successful local winemaker, who converted from a 100 year old apple farming business. He took the time to get degrees in viticulture and oenology. I've met him a few times. Browse their site, including the link to the article: http://www.oakeswinery.com/index.htm.

[Chris_Austin]

As for competing with the $5 grocery store wines, forget it. You are a NOT a bulk winemaker. You are a passionate craftsman who painstakingly creates poetry in a glass each vintage. You want 80% of your sales to be on site or direct mail or you will never make it. Remember, the grocer paid $3.25 for the $5 bottle.

This is SPOT on.

You have to create an experience to connect your clients (and their hearts / minds) emotionally back to your winery, your winemaking and eventually back to the land the grapes are farmed. It is the experience and the connection you have to establish. This includes making a believeable story or brand or imagery they identify with over time. You are not competing with a nameless label in a grocery store. You are competing for attention and relationship with their emotions.

Your brand, imagery, tasting experience, building and everything needs to be constructed to reinforce your desired exerience. And when that experience resonates, folks will pay $20 or $30 or perhaps more a bottle to enjoy the memory and remain connected. And they will return vintage after vintage as lifelong clients.

Sorry to be on a soap box here, but in my opinion only, being a winery is significantly more than producing a drinkable product. A lot of folks can do that. The successful ones orchestrate a complete and congruent experience resulting in long term affiliation between clients and winemaker / winery.

Good luck on your endeavor.

[jhrusky]

Sorry to be on a soap box here, but in my opinion only, being a winery is significantly more than producing a drinkable product. A lot of folks can do that. The successful ones orchestrate a complete and congruent experience resulting in long term affiliation between clients and winemaker / winery.

Good luck on your endeavor.

Thank you for that advice. You invoked a memory I have a winery we visited in Napa Valley years ago, and still order wine from because the experience was so wonderful, the V. Sattui Winery. The prices were not inexpensive, but the experience was one we treasure. I do need to make that adjustment to our plan, to ensure we create an experience for all visitors.

[Tomer1]

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<p>Sorry to be on a soap box here, but in my opinion only, being a winery is significantly more than producing a drinkable product. A lot of folks can do that. The successful ones orchestrate a complete and congruent experience resulting in long term affiliation between clients and winemaker / winery</p>
<p>

</p>
<p> </p>
<p>I agree, marketing is everything in the wine biz. you can even make do with a mediocre product.</p>
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