26 replies to this topic

[tim221]

Hey all-
Recent Winemaker Magazine (June-July 2012) there is an article that is the "definitive guide" for washing and sanitizing winemaking equipment. There is a chart on page 30 that, as near as I can tell, basically hates on everything except enzyme-based cleaner/sanitizer if you use "soft glass carboys."

I presume all the standard carboys are "soft glass carboys" (although I don't recommend kicking one to check for softness).

I know there's a lot of back and forth on use of cleaners and sanitizers, and I don't mean to stir the pot, but has anyone out there been working with the enzyme based products (Natural 2X Concentrated Laundry Detergent by Seventh Generation Inc; and CGA Pro-Zyme, CGA Super Pro-Zyme, CGA Bio-Zyme by PDQ Manufacturing / Health Lab Products)?

Frankly, I'm kind of happy with One Step No Rinse Cleaner / Star San (I feel like I've finally got them figured out and have a nice routine in using them) but I'm still in the "newbie" category so if I'm gonna change how I'm doing stuff I would just as soon do it now instead of later.

Thansk!
Tim

[WVMountaineerJack]

We use simple sal soda and rinse with a little vinegar and let air dry without any issues. CC

[S Hofner]

I have been busy and have only glanced over the article, so I don't yet know all of its details. However, when I first flipped through my copy and saw that article, the first thought in my head was is this opinion or do they base this on empirical evidence to back up the ratings on their chart? I guess I need to read the whole article and find out.

[moundtop]

I read that article also and found that I only agreed with some of the advice given (in the context of the home winemaker).
I ferment my whites in 6 gal carboys with a blow-off assembly and all of my reds ultimately find their way into carboys of various sizes. My first rule-of-thumb for carboy maintenance is that I NEVER let a carboy get dry unless it has been cleaned and sanitized first. I have found that religiously following this policy prevents any build-up of hard to remove deposits. Here's the rest of my approach. Any carboy that has had wine in it for more than 24 hours is thoroughly rinsed with tap water 3X then soaked overnight in a solution of tap water plus 1 TSP PBW per gallon (Powdered Brewers Wash). This "alkaline soak" is very effective at removing organic deposits and any biofilms that may have built-up. Next, I soak the same carboy in a solution of tap water plus Star San (1 oz/5 gal) for about 15-30 min. This "acid soak" (with slight foaming action) is performed to kill micro-organisms that survived the alkaline soak, Finally, I add about a cup of potassium metabisulfite sanitizing solution (1 TSP K-Meta + 1 TSP citric acid per gallon) to the carboy and insert a stopper. The SO2 gas trapped in the carboy represents a death trap to any remaining micro-organisms. If I plan to use the carboy in the next month or so, I keep the SO2 and stopper in place. If not, I drain the carboy in 24 hours and store it dry with a bunched-up paper towel in the openning to minimize dust/bugs, etc. This approach has served me well and I reccommend it. In my opinion, the Star San step is probably a bit of over kill but it serves as a bit of a security blanket for me. I use a sililar proces for maintaining my tubing (soaked in a tub) except that for the SO2 step I hang the tubing with clips at either end to form a "U-shape" then fill with SO2 sanitizer and allow to soak overnight. Next, they hang in an inverted-U configuration to dry.
The only stainless steel that I have in my winery is the filter housing that I use for membrane filtering sweet wines. I never clean it with either PBW or Star San as I am afraid of ruining the highly polished finish. I clean it with regular detergent and sterilize it in boiling water for 20 min. So far, so good...
Just my two cents worth.

[kakeeler]

That was an interesting article. For carboys, we've been scrubbing them with sanitized brushes with hot water and then doing a Star-San soak. They say you don't have to rinse the Star-San, but we do. We put a paper towel over the opening and then rubber band it over the neck. For the barrels we use the K-Meta and Citric acid, after a heavy washing out until the water runs clear, and then sulfur stick it until ready.

[altavino]

We use simple sal soda and rinse with a little vinegar and let air dry without any issues. CC

you do know vinegar is made by spoiling wine with bacteria?
vinegar should never be used in contact with anything wine related . if there is any live culture it could ruin your whole batch.

a kmeta solution is a much better idea

[WVMountaineerJack]

Distilled white vinegar has no bugs in it, its just the cheapest acid you can buy at the grocery store, we have very hard water and it makes everything squeaky clean, air dried, paper towel in the opening and store for whenever we need it. CC

you do know vinegar is made by spoiling wine with bacteria?
vinegar should never be used in contact with anything wine related . if there is any live culture it could ruin your whole batch.

a kmeta solution is a much better idea

[tim221]

Thanks for all the comments.. Moundtop, I like your approach and thanks for all the details. I've been leaving a Starsan solution in stoppered carboys when they are sitting empty, but think I like the SO2 solution idea better.

Tim

[kakeeler]

We've been making vinegar out of our wine attempts and actually barrel age it, and numerous people have warned us to not even have it in the same building as our wine barrels, that bacteria can get into the air and damage your good wines. I have not researched definitive information on it, and it's possible the distillation does kill the bugs. I just know that there are so many road hazards on the path to creating that perfect bottle of wine, I just can't take the chance. I can ruin it on my own in many other ways (and have, without even trying!) K.

[WVMountaineerJack]

Hi Kakeeler, so you think boiling the dilute vinegar to distill it might kill the bacteria in it? Having it growing in your own home vs using distilled to clean up as a weak acid is miles apart. It evaporates quickly, cleans all those nasty alkaline cleaners off and after its dries leaves no smell that can in any way affect winemaking. CC

[Wade's Wines]

It would scare me to use vinegar anywhere around winemaking! I hope it continues to work for you, CC, but I don't think I'll be trying it.
I sanitize with an iodopher solution called BTF.

[BobF]

I use citric acid instead of vinegar when I want acidic cleaner. It work great for all of your hard water deposit problems too!

[rpage53]

There isn't any real risk of bacteria in distilled vinegar, however, that should give you a hint that its not the best disinfectant for wine making. One of the microbes we are most interested in eliminating grows in it!
Vinegar is often only 5% to start with and shouldn't be diluted by more than half to have any effectiveness. Citric acid is a better antimicrobial and can be mixed at strong concentrations with k-meta, though people tend to use ineffectively weak dilutions. Some winemakers don't want to use anything but tartaric acid.
http://www.oroclean....es/citric-acid/

A hard glass (Pyrex) carboy would be around $200.

Rick.

[WVMountaineerJack]

Guys, I am not trying to convince anyone to use vinegar at all, just telling you what we use. We also DO NOT use it as a disinfectant, but only to clean off the previously applied alkaline cleaner. We use citric acid in our KMeta sanatizing solutions but it would be much more expensive to use like we use the vinegar to simply make things clean with an acid wash. CC

[WVMountaineerJack]

Wade, I would never want to scare you CC

It would scare me to use vinegar anywhere around winemaking! I hope it continues to work for you, CC, but I don't think I'll be trying it.
I sanitize with an iodopher solution called BTF.