43 replies to this topic

[WVMountaineerJack]

Wood is not going to do it, the plywood can have air gaps in it and can blow out under pressure. CC

[Kirby]

CrackedCork - Based on the quality of the plywood I have seen lately, I have the same concerns. I do think plywood will be structurely strong enough, just potentially leaky. Wrapping the entire box with plastic sheeting and dust tape (sorta like a winemaker's Christmas present) will allow the vacuum pump to reach degassing levels (which, in my case, is about 15"-18" Hg).

Post photos when you are done.

[cknowlto]

OK, now I have to see that. I have some serious doubts that at the pressures that we are talking about, you are going to cause expansion of anything other than minor surface air pockets in the plywood. And a single TACO run to test the safety valve should work those out. I will test with an engineer just in case, but now I think I have to put my $$ where my mouth is and build one.

Would there be any significant permeability differences between a 10% solution of ethanol + water and wine?

I can get the test solution checked after a couple hours under vaccum for dissolved organics, etc.

This is my biggest concern with this build.



ChrisK

[cknowlto]

OK, I talked to the engineer and he is also an amateur wine maker and he just this weekend, discovered that his new red was unfortunately carbonated. Until he talked to me today, he was unaware of the cause. Now he is off to the races talking about a continuous process in-line degassing setup, carboy to carboy. Lets see what he comes up with and I will make them for folks.

[Mark J]

We need someone who is handy and can make a thick walled plastic box big enough to hold a big better bottle, then the bottle can be put in the box, the bung removed and the carboy degassed without collapsing the sides, maybe put a valve on it to hold the vacuum after the pump has been shut off and then slowly let the pressure back into the cube. It would also take a lot of the stress off of our glass carboys and be a lot safer. If just one winemaking shop could sell it they could corner the market quickly. That way you would just put your carboy in the chamber, take off the airlock, crank on the vacuum, the pressure would be equal in and out of the bottle so no collapsing, no stress cracks would be stressed and the little cut off valve would let you slowly let the pressure back in. I know some of those guys who do the home projects and publish then in Winemaker mag could probably figure it out.

Crackedcork

I think this is what your looking for, Just a little bigger.

[TNWino]

If you can find a bucket with a lid (similar to the plastic pails we use as fermentors) that is large enough to accomodate the carboy, you can probably use it as a lightweight, inexpensive vacuum chamber. Just modify the lid to accept a suitable connection for the hose. As long as you don't use too much vacuum, this should work. If you do use too much vacuum, you'll start to cave in the plastic bucket, but this should happen slowly enough that you can avoid a catastrophe. You'll probably want a valve to modulate the vacuum; it really shouldn't take much to pull the CO2 out of solution, as it really wants to come out slowly even at atmospheric pressure. I would guess even a few inches of water column vacuum would do the job.

The previous post is interesting too. The chamber looked like an oversize PVC pipe coupler, and you might be able to find such a thing for sale. That would also work nicely, and would be pressure rated, though, again, I doubt you need that much suction to do the job.

Scott

[Hammered]

I tried vacuum racking into a plastic bucket and it collapsed.

[Wade's Wines]

I'll bet we could build a stainless racking chamber for under $500!
The racking chamber is an interesting idea.

[TNWino]

Sorry, I should clarify. (Pardon the pun.) I meant that you should put your carboy into a large enough plastic bucket, then pull a bit of vacuum to pull out the CO2. I can definitely see how trying to vacuum rack INTO a bucket would collapse it. (And maybe it still would with the carboy inside, but I would think de-gassing would require less vacuum than racking. Maybe I'm wrong, I've never really tried.)

Scott

[rpage53]

Don't underestimate the power of the atmosphere -- a plywood side that is 16"X24" could experience up to 2 tons of pressure. The container has to withstand 10 tons of pressure.
A thick plastic pipe section exactly like in the video would be the way to go. With the gasket approach to the end plates, the container can be assembled around the carboy rather than lifting it in and out.

Rick.

[WVMountaineerJack]

Rick, the point is to degass in a better bottle without it collapsing, though a degassing chamber would of course work for a glass carboy just as well. CC

Don't underestimate the power of the atmosphere -- a plywood side that is 16"X24" could experience up to 2 tons of pressure. The container has to withstand 10 tons of pressure.
A thick plastic pipe section exactly like in the video would be the way to go. With the gasket approach to the end plates, the container can be assembled around the carboy rather than lifting it in and out.

On the other hand, just do your degassing normally but with the carboy in a Brute. Any glass fragments or wine leakage would be contained.

Rick.

[Bert1]

The degassing chamber is a great idea, the volume of air in it will not be all that great, it is filled mostly with wine. I degas in line by starting off with a small tube and bump it up to a bigger tube twice. Once the wine hits the larger tube, a large amount of gas comes out.
It may be more cost effective to purchase a glass carboy just for vacuum racking.

[Whackfol]

Another thought if the vacuum pressure required to degass is not too great: create a protective frame sufficient to protect the better bottle and insert the assembly into a vacuum bag such as used by woodworkers to veneer. They already have a valve and are quite durable. You may even be able to use those clothes bags they sell on late night TV.

[MurphyTexas]

The degassing chamber is a great idea, the volume of air in it will not be all that great, it is filled mostly with wine. I degas in line by starting off with a small tube and bump it up to a bigger tube twice. Once the wine hits the larger tube, a large amount of gas comes out.
It may be more cost effective to purchase a glass carboy just for vacuum racking.

I agree with Bert that it seems simpler to use your glass carboy to vacuum rack then put it in the better bottle. I like better bottles but there is no way to pull even a slight vacuum on one.

You guys sure are creative with making a chamber. Pressure and vacuum are equally distributed forces so round is better than square (think nitrogen cylinder) so a thick walled round pipe would work the best - like a section of that blue underground water pipe with plexiglass top and bottom.

And for some humor... Here was one of my father's favorite comics that was on our fridge...

[Hammered]

Even though I don't need it, this is one of those things I need to put on my projects list. The wheels are just spinning.