43 replies to this topic

[WVMountaineerJack]

We need someone who is handy and can make a thick walled plastic box big enough to hold a big better bottle, then the bottle can be put in the box, the bung removed and the carboy degassed without collapsing the sides, maybe put a valve on it to hold the vacuum after the pump has been shut off and then slowly let the pressure back into the cube. It would also take a lot of the stress off of our glass carboys and be a lot safer. If just one winemaking shop could sell it they could corner the market quickly. That way you would just put your carboy in the chamber, take off the airlock, crank on the vacuum, the pressure would be equal in and out of the bottle so no collapsing, no stress cracks would be stressed and the little cut off valve would let you slowly let the pressure back in. I know some of those guys who do the home projects and publish then in Winemaker mag could probably figure it out.

Crackedcork

[Noontime]

That's a really good idea. I'm sure there are more than a few unforseen issues (inherent to anything being developed). Two that come to mind are size (although carboys aren't exactly small to begin with), and the amount of vacuum needed for a much greater space (compared to the relatively small headspace in a carboy).

[Hammered]

I'm sure you could make it out of wood instead of plastic. Build a box big enough for the carboy with a gasketed lid and some draw clamp closures (think lunch bucket clamps) and seal the joints of the wood with silicone sealant. Put a bulkhead fitting on the box and adapt that to a barbed fitting to connect to the vacuum pump. You could even install a viewing port of 1/4" thick lexan onto the side with silicone and screws.

Give it a go and get that patent!

[WVMountaineerJack]

Splinter shrapnel is probably the result if I built it. Drawing a vacuum in that much space shouldnt be a problem with any of the vacuums people can pull 25 HG with nowadays, a little patience. I dont build stuff, I just make wine. CC

[jerzy_s]

We need someone who is handy and can make a thick walled plastic box big enough to hold a big better bottle, then the bottle can be put in the box, the bung removed and the carboy degassed without collapsing the sides, maybe put a valve on it to hold the vacuum after the pump has been shut off and then slowly let the pressure back into the cube. It would also take a lot of the stress off of our glass carboys and be a lot safer. If just one winemaking shop could sell it they could corner the market quickly. That way you would just put your carboy in the chamber, take off the airlock, crank on the vacuum, the pressure would be equal in and out of the bottle so no collapsing, no stress cracks would be stressed and the little cut off valve would let you slowly let the pressure back in. I know some of those guys who do the home projects and publish then in Winemaker mag could probably figure it out.

Crackedcork

I consider myself quite handy - but this seems to me a futile attempt with Better Bottle. I think the container would have to be excruciatingly precise to account for ALL shape changes. And even then I think once you add a little vacuum the plastic will give in somewhere possibly ruining the bottle itself. Seems faster, easier, to rack to a glass carboy and vacuum from there.

Not to hijack your topic, but since we are on Better Bottles.... is there any issues with long term aging of wine (say 1-2 years) in Better Bottle container? I've read somewhere it may be allowing some air through the plastic itself

[Hammered]

I think what CC is suggesting is putting the opened better bottle in the chamber and then applying the vacuum to the chamber, and as such the pressure would be the same on both sides, eliminating the risk of collapsing the BB.

To answer your hijack question, BB's are PET and have a very low permeability rating compared to most other plastics. However, they are permeable, perhaps giving you the advantage of barrel or flex tank micro-oxygenation. BTW as I understand them, Flextanks are LDPE, about 4 to 10 times more permeable than PET (assuming same thickness).

[cknowlto]

I think what CC is suggesting is putting the opened better bottle in the chamber and then applying the vacuum to the chamber, and as such the pressure would be the same on both sides, eliminating the risk of collapsing the BB.

To answer your hijack question, BB's are PET and have a very low permeability rating compared to most other plastics. However, they are permeable, perhaps giving you the advantage of barrel or flex tank micro-oxygenation. BTW as I understand them, Flextanks are LDPE, about 4 to 10 times more permeable than PET (assuming same thickness).

I could easily make this tool, but I am not sure it would be cost effective. The 3/4 inch plywood would also be very heavy. This would have to end up being a semi permanent fixture in your wine lab. I will make a materials list and a quote this evening for a degassing case that will hold up to a 6.5 gallon carboy. It's a great idea.

Oh, and the volume of the case is not really relavent. Our little HF vaccum pumps will pull their limit on a whole room (if it was sealed) It would just take a couple days.

Be back later with drawings and a list/quote.

[Hammered]

I could easily make this tool, but I am not sure it would be cost effective. The 3/4 inch plywood would also be very heavy. This would have to end up being a semi permanent fixture in your wine lab. I will make a materials list and a quote this evening for a degassing case that will hold up to a 6.5 gallon carboy. It's a great idea.

Oh, and the volume of the case is not really relavent. Our little HF vaccum pumps will pull their limit on a whole room (if it was sealed) It would just take a couple days.

Be back later with drawings and a list/quote.

Save yourself a few bucks and use 1/4" plywood. Just use a 1x1 in the corners to hold it together, and lots of silicone applied like glue and a caulk joint to seal it up.

You might have a hard time finding a bulkhead that will adapt to 3/4", too.

To make the gasket, tack or clamp a couple of pieces around each side of the top of the box about 1/16" higher than the top of the box and use that as a form to lay in a flat bead of silicone. When dry, cut along the "forms" and remove them leaving a nice smooth rubber top on the box. I'd be all over this if I had any better bottles and wanted to degas them.

If it works, I may include this (with credits, of course) in the next edition of my book!

[Noontime]

Oh, and the volume of the case is not really relavent. Our little HF vaccum pumps will pull their limit on a whole room (if it was sealed) It would just take a couple days.

Good to know! Thanks.

[Joe_Sallo]

Agreed on the volume not being relevant but a square wooden box just seems wrong to pull a vacuum on; you may need to you paint it on the outside to form a seal. We used to have to repair tire x-ray tubes and had to pot the connection end with epoxy, we stuck that in a vacuum oven to pull the air bubbles out of the epoxy since it was sort of like a slurry. Worked great.

[WVMountaineerJack]

I would worry that the vacuum would pull odors out of they glue in the plywood, and flexing wood back and forth doesnt seem like a good idea. I would think more like lexan or plexiglass would be a much better idea, would seal much easier than wood and wouldnt splinter on implosion. Also there is a possibility that some people would just crank up the vacuum not being patient and valcano thier wine out of the top and make the wood wet, with a plastic material that wouldnt matter and nothing would grow on it. CC

[WVMountaineerJack]

Jerzy, Think chamber to put the bottle in, pressure equal everywhere so no deformation. CC

I consider myself quite handy - but this seems to me a futile attempt with Better Bottle. I think the container would have to be excruciatingly precise to account for ALL shape changes. And even then I think once you add a little vacuum the plastic will give in somewhere possibly ruining the bottle itself. Seems faster, easier, to rack to a glass carboy and vacuum from there.

Not to hijack your topic, but since we are on Better Bottles.... is there any issues with long term aging of wine (say 1-2 years) in Better Bottle container? I've read somewhere it may be allowing some air through the plastic itself

[jerzy_s]

I think what CC is suggesting is putting the opened better bottle in the chamber and then applying the vacuum to the chamber, and as such the pressure would be the same on both sides, eliminating the risk of collapsing the BB.

OK - That makes sense - sorry - misunderstood.

Why not convert a steel beer barrel? (chop one end off and either reuse it with a simple seal or cover the chopped end with a piece of plexi?

Or make one brand new from a large diameter PVC (or steel) pipe sealed from both ends with either pvc caps or - for visibility - with thick plexi?

[cknowlto]

Be back later with drawings and a list/quote.

OK, my drawing tool is acting up, either that or I suck at it. End result though is that I have a design I am confident in that includes all the things that were asked for plus a safety valve to insure you do not end up with a pile of wine soaked splinters. It will hold a 6.5 gallon carboy or smaller. materials run about $100 and labor about $200.

It is a 3/4 in plywood box with a 3 inch window and an attachment for your vaccum pump. It has a front door/hatch that you close/open using 4 wing nuts on 3/8in studs. It is reinforced with hardwood braces and interior corners. An interior light and a mount for the vacum pump would also be nice, but are not in there now. I am thinking the front seals will be a continuous silicone bead set into a routed groove

Here is a cartoon of what it would look like.

[cknowlto]

I would worry that the vacuum would pull odors out of they glue in the plywood, and flexing wood back and forth doesnt seem like a good idea. I would think more like lexan or plexiglass would be a much better idea, would seal much easier than wood and wouldnt splinter on implosion. Also there is a possibility that some people would just crank up the vacuum not being patient and valcano thier wine out of the top and make the wood wet, with a plastic material that wouldnt matter and nothing would grow on it. CC

Hmmmm.... Perhaps sealing the plywood with something would prevent extraction of glue, other odors. Safety valve is a simple adjustable spring based pressure valve that I am confident could be made cheaply. The 3/4 inch ply should be more than enough to hold a respectable vaccum, especially reinforced by the hardwood. I was thinking construction adhesive (silicone based) to seal the box joins on the corners and the back. Now I am worried about degassing the adhesive. Maybe trial runs will remove the odors.