17 replies to this topic

[JW Bordoh]

Last week I planted six cabernet sauvignon and six merlot, all self rooted. The vines I planted already have existing shoots which have hardened off, as opposed to just a few buds on a single stem as shown in From Vines to Wines. My question is, what do I cut and where? (Picture attached) I understand that part of this decision is based on the type of trellis system I'm planning to use. I expect that I'll be going with a single trunk and using VSP. I should mention though that I'm concerned about, and expect to be dealing with vigor. My soil is clay/loam, I'm in the Santa Clara Valley, everything seems to grow like weeds around here. Any advice would be greatly appreciated. Thanks

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[knotsorich]

You are supposed to prune them back to a few buds like he shows, then let them grow for the season to grow nice and healthy to form a good root system. Some suppliers pre-prune, others don't.

[JW Bordoh]

Thanks, that's what I was thinking but wasn't sure if I was supposed to leave the first node on each shoot.

[Hammered]

Those plants look like they are more than first year. I think if they had a good root ball system, I'd keep the trunk, cut off the bottom branch completely as knotsorich suggests but then lay down the top two largest branches on a wire to form your cordons. Cut them off when they get smaller than about 1/4". Then cut off the other two branches so you only have a trunk and two branches tied to a wire.

Then, don't let them fruit this year -- cut off the flowers when they form and limit vigor with pruning so you're developing stronger bigger cordons and trunk and roots, and maybe a well organized series of spurs for next year.

[knotsorich]

I don't think the vine is as big as you think hammered. My guess is the upper canes might reach 30 inches- way to short and small to be using to develop cordons. Let the roots grow then next year you can form the cordons if they do well this year.

[kallmet]

,I read somewhere that young 1 year old vines that are regularly sold from the nurseries, establish better that the old one transplanted. And why own rooted vinifera?

Gilman

[JW Bordoh]

,I read somewhere that young 1 year old vines that are regularly sold from the nurseries, establish better that the old one transplanted. And why own rooted vinifera?

Gilman

With regard to the own-rooted vines, it was my strong preference to get them on a rootstock better adapted to my soil. From what I've read 101-14 does well in clay soil and also limits vigor to some extent. However, I was unable to find anyone that would supply these in the small quantity that I was looking for. Part of the problem it seems is that there are restrictions on shipping grape vines into California. I lucked out last year and found a guy locally who had a bunch of Cab Franc on 101-14 and I got 30 vines for $25. So, my very small "vineyard" consists of 6 Cabernet Sauvignon, 6 Merlot, and 8 Cab Franc, all panted 5x5. These are the varieties I wanted, the only drawback is that the Cabernet Sauvignon and Merlot are self-rooted. So, we'll see. I'm into this as much for the gardening challenge as the wine making part. Anyone nearby have any experience with self-rooted Cab or Merlot?

[pso]

I was checking out the weeds around the base of the vine. Pretty healthy looking weeds for a vine planted only a week ago.

[bantam9]

That is the biggest first year plant I've ever seen. You must have some nutrient rich soil?? WOW.
Of my vines coming out of first year, from what I remember, some were scrauny, some did very well, but that plant is huge for year 1.
Good luck with them.

[HoCo Al]

With regard to the own-rooted vines, it was my strong preference to get them on a rootstock better adapted to my soil. From what I've read 101-14 does well in clay soil and also limits vigor to some extent. However, I was unable to find anyone that would supply these in the small quantity that I was looking for. Part of the problem it seems is that there are restrictions on shipping grape vines into California. I lucked out last year and found a guy locally who had a bunch of Cab Franc on 101-14 and I got 30 vines for $25. So, my very small "vineyard" consists of 6 Cabernet Sauvignon, 6 Merlot, and 8 Cab Franc, all panted 5x5. These are the varieties I wanted, the only drawback is that the Cabernet Sauvignon and Merlot are self-rooted. So, we'll see. I'm into this as much for the gardening challenge as the wine making part. Anyone nearby have any experience with self-rooted Cab or Merlot?

Maybe you should buy some rootstock and graft some cuttings from your self-rooted vines onto a different rootstock. Then you could do a test over a number of years with self-rooted and grafted vines side by side.

I don't know much about California viticulture, but I was under the impression that Phylloxera was a problem throughout the U.S. It will be interesting to see if the own-rooted vines thrive for any length of time. But if you hedge your bets and graft some as well, you might be happy you did in a few years.

[woodyp60]

Last year I ordered 100+ Cabernet Sauvignon on 101-14 rootstock. I suspect I may have an extra one after my planting in April. If so you are welcome to one for your experiment.

Peter.

[Chano Aguayo]

JW  Here is what I would do based on many years of of pruning experience:  The vine is more than one year old, most likely three, but two for sure.  On the righ side, I would cut the lower cane just past its branch collar (apply a wound sealer), it has too long internodes.  Cut the straight brown vertically growing cane and next, from that same cut cane, count four buds and cut half inch past the fourth bud.
On the left side, cut the lower cane, and again, past its branch collar.  This lower cane also has too long internodes.  On the upper cane, count four buds and cut the cane past its bud. Once this process is completed, then if you string wires, allow the canes to grow furhter to wherever you wish to extend the cordons. and keep the internodes short.  The condition you currently have for that vine indicates extreme vigor therefore, keep a close eye during its growing period by monitoring irrigation or fertilization, do not overdo it or you will have the same condition you now have with long inernodes.  Thanks.
Chano

[JW Bordoh]

Thanks to all for the input. I think the picture is a little misleading due to perspective maybe. The vines were only about 24" high. I've take the advice of Knotsorich and pruned them back to the first node on each "branch". I plan to train the 2 or three shoots that grow this year vertically to form a trunk. I'll then select one to keep permanently and nick off the buds below the fruiting wire. Next year's growth will form the cordons. In the following year I'll grow out the appropriate number of spurs and then should be growing shoots from there that could produce fruit in the following year if the rest of the vine is ready. I'm still concerned about self-rooted vs. a particular rootstock that is better adapted to my soil. How hard is it to graft cuttings onto a rootstock and where would I get a particular rootstock? I'd be willing to give it a go and plant the test subjects in pots as a back up.

[pso]

Here's a start, a grafting video and a pdf file on rootstocks:

http://extension.ore...f/em/em8882.pdf


And a pages on cabernet and merlot attributes:

http://www.doubleavi...on-grafted.aspx
http://www.doubleavi...ot-grafted.aspx

[Hollywood Hill Vineyards]

One thing I want to know is how far away is the closest commercial vineyard? Phylloxera is a huge problem in California and you might end up losing those vines in a couple of years.

Grafting is an art that I've not mastered. I've tried a few times but nothing works for me. I just end up paying people to grow my vines if I want them on rootstock which is not too much of an issue around here since phylloxera still isn't a problem around here and never likely to be a problem. You might save yourself a lot of headache and just buy some rootstocked vines.