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Some Cleaning Questions From A Newbie


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#1 Kencarpenter

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Posted 17 February 2012 - 09:16 PM

I know from my reading that cleaning is all important. I have three cleaning solutions that were giving to me when I started I just need some advice on when is appropriate to use them.

I wash everything before I use it then I use starsan in a spray bottle or in a bucket to sanatize before use anything. I even spray my hands before I work with the wine.

But I have these two cleansers that I may be using wrong.

C-brite - I have only used this to clean my primary (plastic bucket) before I reuse it. I do wash the bucket out with hot water and soap right after use and use starsan. I also use it before I use a carboy. Is this appropriate use of the chemical?

I bought this PBW but I an not sure of its use? Does it replace C-brite? Should I be using this instead of regular dish soap for my regular cleaing of utinsiles?

#2 gregorio

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Posted 17 February 2012 - 10:12 PM

I thought C-Bright was chlorine? If so, it should not be used in and around a winery especially one that uses barrels and corks. The presence of Chlorine can lead to TCA problems. B-Brite and PBW are good clenaers and better than dish soap and just about interchangable with each other. Both should be rinsed with an acid when used on porous materials like barrels and plastic fermeters. Citric or Tartaric is fine. Star San is a great sanitizer but can leave a bad flavor if you do not let the surface dry first. You can also rinse it and avoid the problem.
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#3 Kencarpenter

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Posted 18 February 2012 - 08:02 AM

Thanks Greg C-brite is chlorine, I will ditch it. What is the purpose of rinsing with Citric or Tartaric acid?

#4 Minnesotaris

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Posted 18 February 2012 - 08:29 AM

From brewing podcasts, PBW (Powdered Brewer's Wash) is a combination of a soap, an oxi agent similar to OxiClean and another cleaning agent. Here is the tech sheet for it: http://www.midwestsu... Tech Sheet.pdf

It is used in brewing to clean the remaining sludges and protein remainders left in boil kettles and krausen deposits from fermenters. I use Dawn dish soap and a bit of OxiClean in my carboys to get the krausen deposits off, mainly in Better Bottles where I don't want to use carboy scrub brushes. This combo works like a champ.

Now in wine-making, I don't see the same hard-to-remove deposits so I just wash out the fermenters with Dawn and sanitize with Star San before adding new must. Soap is essential to remove any oils and soils so never skip on a pre-wash with soap. Star San is essential and I always have some pre-made in a jug, ready to go. I don't think PBW is needed in winemaking.
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Secondary - Italian Chianti, Concord, WE Trinity White, WE SI Montepulciano, Chilean Cab., Cheap-curse Barolo kit.

#5 Kencarpenter

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Posted 18 February 2012 - 08:42 AM

Thanks for the reply Minnesotaris. This is good information everyone please keep the suggestions coming.

#6 GEM

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Posted 18 February 2012 - 09:15 AM

I wash everything with a dishwashing soap, rinse throughly several times and sanitize with KMeta or LD Carlson "Easy Clean." I like the EC as it is a no rinse cleaner. I think it is about like StarSan, but not sure. Anyway, this is the process an "expert" told me to follow. I am just starting out too. Hope this helps, Gary
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#7 saramc

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Posted 18 February 2012 - 09:24 AM

There is a difference between cleaning and sanitizing, have met many people who don't realize or acknowledge there is a difference. And, I just love PBW as a cleanser.
 

Cleansers and sanitizers are not the same: cleansers leave your equipment bright and clean; sanitizers keep bacteria and other spoilage organisms under control. Before you sanitize, everything must be clean. Rinse bottles, primary fermenters and carboys as soon as they are empty to avoid scraping dried, caked-on residue off them later.



http://somethingwine...RJ-Cleaning.pdf

Gregorio...the rinsing of plastic/barrel with an acidic solution helps prevent the development of mold when equipment is stored, correct?
~Sara~ Made 71.5 gallons of wine in 2011--my first year in winemaking & I loved every minute of it!!
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#8 Kencarpenter

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Posted 18 February 2012 - 10:01 AM

Nice document thanks Sara.

#9 gregorio

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Posted 18 February 2012 - 12:15 PM

Thanks Greg C-brite is chlorine, I will ditch it. What is the purpose of rinsing with Citric or Tartaric acid?

It neutralizes the very alkaline carbonate cleaners. Water alone is often not enough. Using StarSan will neutralize the cleaner but it will also render in ineffective.
Perrucci Family Wines by Kennedy Hill Vineyards. Contact us regarding our monthly cork group buys.

#10 gregorio

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Posted 18 February 2012 - 12:19 PM

There is a difference between cleaning and sanitizing, have met many people who don't realize or acknowledge there is a difference. And, I just love PBW as a cleanser.
 

Cleansers and sanitizers are not the same: cleansers leave your equipment bright and clean; sanitizers keep bacteria and other spoilage organisms under control. Before you sanitize, everything must be clean. Rinse bottles, primary fermenters and carboys as soon as they are empty to avoid scraping dried, caked-on residue off them later.




http://somethingwine...RJ-Cleaning.pdf

Gregorio...the rinsing of plastic/barrel with an acidic solution helps prevent the development of mold when equipment is stored, correct?

Acidic solutions like StarSan make excellent sanitizers and will help make the surface inhospitable for bacteria and molds for a while. Eventually, the effectivenss wears off but as along as there is no organic matter left on the surface, nothing will grow. A simple rinse with the sanitizer before use is all you need. This is why it is more important to clean equipment than it is to just sanitize. "Clean" stainless is sanitized stainless.

My specific recommendation for a acid rinse is to neutralize the PBW or B-Brite products. If you skip this step, your sanitizer or worse, your wine will be effected.
Perrucci Family Wines by Kennedy Hill Vineyards. Contact us regarding our monthly cork group buys.

#11 gregorio

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Posted 18 February 2012 - 12:46 PM

From brewing podcasts, PBW (Powdered Brewer's Wash) is a combination of a soap, an oxi agent similar to OxiClean and another cleaning agent. Here is the tech sheet for it: http://www.midwestsu...ech%20Sheet.pdf

It is used in brewing to clean the remaining sludges and protein remainders left in boil kettles and krausen deposits from fermenters. I use Dawn dish soap and a bit of OxiClean in my carboys to get the krausen deposits off, mainly in Better Bottles where I don't want to use carboy scrub brushes. This combo works like a champ.

Now in wine-making, I don't see the same hard-to-remove deposits so I just wash out the fermenters with Dawn and sanitize with Star San before adding new must. Soap is essential to remove any oils and soils so never skip on a pre-wash with soap. Star San is essential and I always have some pre-made in a jug, ready to go. I don't think PBW is needed in winemaking.


PBW contains surfactants like soaps do but it is not like dish soap at all. They each have their strengths and weaknesses. Dish soaps are very good at removing greasy substances and oxygenates break down organic matter but not the opposite. Since we are trying to remove organic substances and not grease (there are no oils in grapes), we use a product that is specifically sutable for that task. PBW is one of the best cleaners you can use in the winery.
Perrucci Family Wines by Kennedy Hill Vineyards. Contact us regarding our monthly cork group buys.

#12 Minnesotaris

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Posted 18 February 2012 - 01:02 PM


PBW contains surfactants like soaps do but it is not like dish soap at all. They each have their strengths and weaknesses. Dish soaps are very good at removing greasy substances and oxygenates break down organic matter but not the opposite. Since we are trying to remove organic substances and not grease (there are no oils in grapes), we use a product that is specifically sutable for that task. PBW is one of the best cleaners you can use in the winery.


Dish soap rinses clean, I have never had a problem with it. The reason I brought it up is because I always have both dish soap and OxiClean in the house (to remove wine bottle labels) and other folks probably do too. With regard to larger scale wine-making, PBW would be a great product to use. It is also a great product for home too, if you want to buy it. What I described has worked very well for me even when cleaning off nuked-on beer krausen; even more since I have Dawn and OxiClean sitting around.
Peter Kapinos
Primary - JAOM, Banana wine.
Secondary - Italian Chianti, Concord, WE Trinity White, WE SI Montepulciano, Chilean Cab., Cheap-curse Barolo kit.

#13 gregorio

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Posted 18 February 2012 - 01:10 PM


Dish soap rinses clean, I have never had a problem with it. The reason I brought it up is because I always have both dish soap and OxiClean in the house (to remove wine bottle labels) and other folks probably do too. With regard to larger scale wine-making, PBW would be a great product to use. It is also a great product for home too, if you want to buy it. What I described has worked very well for me even when cleaning off nuked-on beer krausen; even more since I have Dawn and OxiClean sitting around.

I'm sure it works well for you. A lot of people pound nails with the back of a socket wrench. It works, just not as well as a hammer.
Perrucci Family Wines by Kennedy Hill Vineyards. Contact us regarding our monthly cork group buys.

#14 Minnesotaris

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Posted 18 February 2012 - 01:14 PM

Okay.
Peter Kapinos
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Secondary - Italian Chianti, Concord, WE Trinity White, WE SI Montepulciano, Chilean Cab., Cheap-curse Barolo kit.




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