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#1 S Hofner

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Posted 06 June 2011 - 04:00 AM

One of the grapes I知 doing this Fall is Noiret. I will doing it as a straight varietal, but will use a small amount of it for blending. I have had a couple commercial ones and love its fruity/peppery nature. So, I am looking for advice/tips for this grape from those of you out there that have experience with this grape.



Harvest- I will have zero control over when they are harvested, but are there brix/pH numbers I should hope for/be leery of? The fruit will be grown in Tennessee.



Yield- I want at least 12 gallons of finished wine; does 250 lbs sound correct?



Pre-inoculation- Is there anything that is a must do/avoid? Such as cold soak, enzymes stronger then normal pectic, whole berry ferments & etc.



TA/pH- Does this grape have a sweet spot different then a normal red wine?



Yeast- What have you used and what did you like? Are there inherent must deficiencies I should be concerned withbeyond a normal GO-Ferm/Fermaid-K diet?



Post-inoculation- I assume since this is a hybrid, oak in the primary is a must to reduce vegetal flavors? Is there a temperature to shoot for? I thought I read some where that Cornell did a comparison between an early heat spike, constant elevated ferment temp and a late heat spike; that the constant elevated temp produced the best varietal character. However, I am unable to find this article again.



Pressing- When? Early, at zero brix or extended maceration? And if an extended maceration, how long did you do and what was your process to help protect the must during the extended period?



MLF- What strain did you use and what did you like? I assume immediate inoculation after racking off gross less following pressing?



Oak/aging- It is my intention to rotate this through a Hungarian barrel, but not for too long. I want the oak to compliment its fruity/peppery nature, not dominate it.



What am I missing?


Scott Hofner
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#2 Howie

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Posted 06 June 2011 - 05:29 AM

I haven't made Noiret, but I've had a few and will be planting some from cuttings I have started this Spring. The pepperiness is somewhat like Lemberger, which I made in 2009. With the Lemberger, I used RC212 and ML culture (liquid strain from LHBS), cold stabilized and aged it on French oak chips. The grapes came in at 23 Brix, 3.26 pH and 0.9 TA and came out nice with no adjustments. The wine took a bronze in last year's NY State Fair. I think 250 lbs. might be a bit too much - 200 should be enough. I've never used oak in the primary, so I can't address that.
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#3 dagobob

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Posted 06 June 2011 - 06:49 AM

One of the grapes I知 doing this Fall is Noiret. I will doing it as a straight varietal, but will use a small amount of it for blending. I have had a couple commercial ones and love its fruity/peppery nature. So, I am looking for advice/tips for this grape from those of you out there that have experience with this grape.



Harvest- I will have zero control over when they are harvested, but are there brix/pH numbers I should hope for/be leery of? The fruit will be grown in Tennessee.



Yield- I want at least 12 gallons of finished wine; does 250 lbs sound correct?



Pre-inoculation- Is there anything that is a must do/avoid? Such as cold soak, enzymes stronger then normal pectic, whole berry ferments & etc.



TA/pH- Does this grape have a sweet spot different then a normal red wine?



Yeast- What have you used and what did you like? Are there inherent must deficiencies I should be concerned withbeyond a normal GO-Ferm/Fermaid-K diet?



Post-inoculation- I assume since this is a hybrid, oak in the primary is a must to reduce vegetal flavors? Is there a temperature to shoot for? I thought I read some where that Cornell did a comparison between an early heat spike, constant elevated ferment temp and a late heat spike; that the constant elevated temp produced the best varietal character. However, I am unable to find this article again.



Pressing- When? Early, at zero brix or extended maceration? And if an extended maceration, how long did you do and what was your process to help protect the must during the extended period?



MLF- What strain did you use and what did you like? I assume immediate inoculation after racking off gross less following pressing?



Oak/aging- It is my intention to rotate this through a Hungarian barrel, but not for too long. I want the oak to compliment its fruity/peppery nature, not dominate it.



What am I missing?

I made Noiret for the first time last fall, and it's flavor has been good from the beginning, albeit a bit peppery, but won't be able to give you a final analysis until this fall when I bottle. I did use oak beans and Opti-Red during fermentation. I opted for Maurivin "B" yeast and MLF. Then during the final racking last month I added Biolees and Tancor Grand Cru. So we will have to see how this ages out, but promises to be very good based on early samplings. I also used it in ~50/50 blend with Corot Noir; which tamed down the pepperiness. Early indications shows this one to be very good as well. If you're up in Pittsburgh, I can give you tastes.

2013 Wines:
Noiret; Muscat; Vignoles; Pear/Apple, Zinfandel/Merlot/Cab-Sav Blend; Elderberry; Blackberry/Elderberry;


#4 S Hofner

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Posted 06 June 2011 - 08:40 AM

I made Noiret for the first time last fall, and it's flavor has been good from the beginning, albeit a bit peppery, but won't be able to give you a final analysis until this fall when I bottle. I did use oak beans and Opti-Red during fermentation. I opted for Maurivin "B" yeast and MLF. Then during the final racking last month I added Biolees and Tancor Grand Cru. So we will have to see how this ages out, but promises to be very good based on early samplings. I also used it in ~50/50 blend with Corot Noir; which tamed down the pepperiness. Early indications shows this one to be very good as well. If you're up in Pittsburgh, I can give you tastes.


When did you press?

I知 curious about the Biolees. I used some last year on a Ros to very good effect.

I plan on playing with a number of blends involving Noiret, Corot Noir, Norton, Foch and Cab S. I plan on doing all of those as varietals this year and reserve a certain amount of each to do a little blending. Based on those trails, and how the varietals turn out, I値l use that for my game plan in 2012.


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#5 dagobob

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Posted 06 June 2011 - 09:05 AM

When did you press?

I知 curious about the Biolees. I used some last year on a Ros to very good effect.

I plan on playing with a number of blends involving Noiret, Corot Noir, Norton, Foch and Cab S. I plan on doing all of those as varietals this year and reserve a certain amount of each to do a little blending. Based on those trails, and how the varietals turn out, I値l use that for my game plan in 2012.

I pressed after one week, fermentation went super fast. Color is an inky red; its the first red wine that I made that seriously dyed my hands red.
I use Bio-Lees in all my red wines; I can definitely tell the difference. It gives the wines a smoother feel; and a perception of sweetness, but not like sugar; but like a reduction of harshness. Numerous times I've compared my Chambourcin to commercial ones, and consistently have fared better, even from the same vineyard/winery that I've gotten my grapes !!

2013 Wines:
Noiret; Muscat; Vignoles; Pear/Apple, Zinfandel/Merlot/Cab-Sav Blend; Elderberry; Blackberry/Elderberry;


#6 S Hofner

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Posted 07 June 2011 - 07:07 PM

Found the Cornell article.

Noiret

Interesting that the best results were achieved at a constant 68 degrees fermentation temperature. I wonder if that is a due to the grape variety or the growing conditions?
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#7 dagobob

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Posted 08 June 2011 - 07:17 AM

Found the Cornell article.

Noiret

Interesting that the best results were achieved at a constant 68 degrees fermentation temperature. I wonder if that is a due to the grape variety or the growing conditions?

I fermented mine in my air conditioned basement; so the ambient temp was pretty much a constant 70 degrees +/-.
I didn't measure the fermentation temp, but the volume/weight was only about 120 lbs and in a 32 gallon Brute; so I don't suspect much of a temperature rise.

2013 Wines:
Noiret; Muscat; Vignoles; Pear/Apple, Zinfandel/Merlot/Cab-Sav Blend; Elderberry; Blackberry/Elderberry;


#8 Jack Smith

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Posted 10 June 2011 - 02:05 PM

I fermented mine in my air conditioned basement; so the ambient temp was pretty much a constant 70 degrees +/-.
I didn't measure the fermentation temp, but the volume/weight was only about 120 lbs and in a 32 gallon Brute; so I don't suspect much of a temperature rise.


I did my 125 lbs from the same batch of grapes in a 20 gallon brute. Ambient temp was a constant 70F in my basement, but the wine got up to close to 90 during the peak of fermentation.




#9 dagobob

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Posted 10 June 2011 - 02:24 PM

I did my 125 lbs from the same batch of grapes in a 20 gallon brute. Ambient temp was a constant 70F in my basement, but the wine got up to close to 90 during the peak of fermentation.

Interesting, maybe I should start measuring my fermentation temps, but I doubt if I would do much about it. :unsure:

2013 Wines:
Noiret; Muscat; Vignoles; Pear/Apple, Zinfandel/Merlot/Cab-Sav Blend; Elderberry; Blackberry/Elderberry;


#10 Jack Smith

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Posted 10 June 2011 - 02:28 PM

Yeah, it's hard to control it when you're open-fermenting in Brutes. But it's good to monitor it for a couple of reasons - first if you take notes, then you can look back over them years later when you're drinking the wine. This can help you to know what impact, if any, ferm temp had on the wine. Secondly, if the temp gets too high you can chuck in some ice bombs to keep it under control.

I use fermentation temperature control for beer, and I will be using it for carboys of white wine this fall. I would use it on red wine, but I can't fit a brute in my chamber, and a jacketed fermenter might be a little too costly. :D

#11 S Hofner

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Posted 21 June 2011 - 11:34 AM

One of my goals is to try and highlight the peppery nature of this grape. I知 not sure how to go about that though. I was hoping Bill Frazier would chime in. I seem to remember that he has done Noiret for a number of years with an emphasis on trying to bring out the pepper. My first thought was to play it safe and use the recommendations put out by Cornell a few years ago GRE with a late heat spike in the fermentation. But if we have another good year in TN, like last year, I'm tempted to try other yeast like maybe SYR?


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#12 dagobob

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Posted 21 June 2011 - 12:06 PM

One of my goals is to try and highlight the peppery nature of this grape. I知 not sure how to go about that though. I was hoping Bill Frazier would chime in. I seem to remember that he has done Noiret for a number of years with an emphasis on trying to bring out the pepper. My first thought was to play it safe and use the recommendations put out by Cornell a few years ago GRE with a late heat spike in the fermentation. But if we have another good year in TN, like last year, I'm tempted to try other yeast like maybe SYR?

Boy, I doubt if there's is any need to highlight the peppery nature. It's so evident, the grapes smell like someone opened a bushel of black pepper. There's no mistaken its presence. It seems to me to be just as present today (during aging) as it was during fermentation.

2013 Wines:
Noiret; Muscat; Vignoles; Pear/Apple, Zinfandel/Merlot/Cab-Sav Blend; Elderberry; Blackberry/Elderberry;


#13 S Hofner

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Posted 21 June 2011 - 01:11 PM

Boy, I doubt if there's is any need to highlight the peppery nature. It's so evident, the grapes smell like someone opened a bushel of black pepper. There's no mistaken its presence. It seems to me to be just as present today (during aging) as it was during fermentation.


I hear what you池e saying, but I had 2 commercial Noirets last week (TN fruit) that the pepper characteristic was very subdued. The fruit was from two different growers and two different wineries. They both were from 2008, so I don稚 know if it was the nature of the vintage, the characteristics of the fruit when grown in TN or a stylistic choice by the vintners.


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#14 dagobob

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Posted 21 June 2011 - 01:44 PM

I hear what you池e saying, but I had 2 commercial Noirets last week (TN fruit) that the pepper characteristic was very subdued. The fruit was from two different growers and two different wineries. They both were from 2008, so I don稚 know if it was the nature of the vintage, the characteristics of the fruit when grown in TN or a stylistic choice by the vintners.

Ah Ha, interesting, my grapes were from the Lake Erie region; 2010, an excellent year for grapes in that area.
My numbers were good and no adjustments were made, so that could explain some things.
I'm really, really anxious to try mine (with a big juicy, mesquite smoked steak) after it completes its aging.
Its killing me wallbash.gif

2013 Wines:
Noiret; Muscat; Vignoles; Pear/Apple, Zinfandel/Merlot/Cab-Sav Blend; Elderberry; Blackberry/Elderberry;


#15 Bill Frazier

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Posted 21 June 2011 - 03:48 PM

"One of my goals is to try and highlight the peppery nature of this grape. I知 not sure how to go about that though. I was hoping Bill Frazier would chime in."

Chiming in Scott - I planted NY73 [Noiret] as it was known in 2001 so my vines are ten years old. Here in Kansas I don't get HUGE pepper flavor but the wine is quite tannic. It's the most tannic hybrid wine I've had experience with...probably as tannic as C. Franc I also grow. I've tasted that pepper quality and I believe it mellows out...at least with the grapes grown here in Kansas. I like the grape...I think you will too.

Important to get the grapes really ripe. I pick mainly based on grape flavor and %TA. I like to get the acid down in the 0.70 - 0.80% range. Brix has been lower than you might expect...17.6 - 20.4 brix over the years. I don't worry about the brix...I increase to about 22 - 23 brix with Zinfandel concentrate + sugar.

Winemaking is pretty standard for my reds. Crush and destem. Add pectic enzyme [see note], Opti Red, French oak chips, hydrated yeast [see note] and about 8 hours later Tanin VR Supra. I ferment in Brute trash cans. I add Fermaid K as fermentation proceeds. Last fall fermentation temp got as high as 81F. I press off the skins when there is some residule sugar...2 to 5 brix and finish in carboys...4 days after start.

The grapes in 2010 were the best I've ever had...19.4 brix, 3.4pH, 0.73%TA. After malo lactic fermentation the pH was high at 4.02. I added tartaric acid to lower to 3.7 - 3.8 range.

The 2010 wines were fermented with MT and GRE yeast. I just went down to the cellar to taste and both are excellent right now. One wine is in an old neutral Gibbs Brothers American oak barrel. The other is in glass. Both have Stavin American Plus cubes [ 6 grams per gallon]. I'm keeping the oak low to preserve fruit flavor in Noiret wine. I've found that too much oak kills the fruit flavor. All other winemaking steps were the same for these wines other than the yeast. Difference is slight but I prefer the MT yeast wine.

I also opened a bottle of 2008 Noiret [fermented with D254]. This wine has been bottled 18 months and is in it's prime. The huge tannic impression when young has mellowed out. I would describe the wine as a big red with mellow tannins and oak, some fruit, but no big pepper that I can perceive. The pepper probably plays a role in the overall flavor but right now it's what you would call a balanced red wine.

One note about the winemaking process. In 2008 I used Lafase HE Grand Cru pectic enzyme. In 2010 I used Lallzyme Ex enzyme. The 2008 wine is nearly black while the 2010 wines are much lighter red...you can easily see through them. I had been using the Lafase enzyme for several years but for a change tried Lallzyme Ex. I'm going back to the Lafase enzyme. I know grapes from different years have different properties but the 2010 Noiret grapes were the best I've had...so I think the enzyme did help extract color from the grapes. You can get small quantities of Lafase enzyme from Davison supply.

Good luck with your wine this fall.
Bill Frazier

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