96 replies to this topic

[Calamity Cellars]

Alan,

I was just joking. Hope I didn't carry it too far. I was very interested in what your results would be and have been following your thread closely.

Fred

Seriously???? You can't take a joke too far with a guy that has beavis & butthead for an avatar. Sarcasm is always welcome.

[Calamity Cellars]

I was doing some calculations for my upcoming Pinot Gris bentonite additions and, based on the results of the testing chronicled in this topic, that I will make an addition of 3.5 lbs / 1000 gallons of wine. I am using 15.5 gallon kegs which works out to 24.61 grams of bentonite. My custom engineered excel spreadsheet told me that I would need 492.1ml of 5% bentonite solution per 15.5 gallon keg. I started thinking that almost 1/2 liter is a but too much water to add so I tried to make a 10% solution so that I would only be adding 246 ml......no way. It was way to thick. I had tried 200 grams bentonite in 2 liters of water and it just wasn't happening so I added another 2 liters and I was able to make it work.

[Michael A]

I was doing some calculations for my upcoming Pinot Gris bentonite additions and, based on the results of the testing chronicled in this topic, that I will make an addition of 3.5 lbs / 1000 gallons of wine. I am using 15.5 gallon kegs which works out to 24.61 grams of bentonite. My custom engineered excel spreadsheet told me that I would need 492.1ml of 5% bentonite solution per 15.5 gallon keg. I started thinking that almost 1/2 liter is a but too much water to add so I tried to make a 10% solution so that I would only be adding 246 ml......no way. It was way to thick. I had tried 200 grams bentonite in 2 liters of water and it just wasn't happening so I added another 2 liters and I was able to make it work.

Make the 5% solution, but use wine for 1/2 the liquid volume...

[Calamity Cellars]

A small update: I played around with the 10% solution and after a couple of days and some stirring I am pretty happy with it. I really wanted to put as little water in as possible and I think this will work. It's about the consistency of a room temperature McDonald's milkshake. If you have kids you already know what that is. At this point I am waiting for some casters to arrive for the bottom of my freezers and then I will be adding the bentonite and sticking it in the freezer set at 20F.

[West Seattle Winery]

Here are my results... smaller samples so initially it wasn't as obvious as Calamity's jars...





But then when you hold the control vs. #5 up to a florescent light....



most of the spots in the tubes that you see are the reflection of the lights on my christmas tree in the background... but control through 3 were obviously hazy... 4 is mostly clear.... 5 was very clear.

I think on my next test I will adjust the bentonite amounts and use larger amounts... I want to see what the results will look like if #5 is somewhere in the middle instead of the end...

[Calamity Cellars]

What were your addition rates?

[West Seattle Winery]

I used the excel sheet you made.

1 - 1/2lb per 1000 gals
2 - 1lb
3 - 1.75
4 - 2.75
5 - 3.5

next time I think I might skip the .5 and 1 pound samples and add larger additions on the end just to get a different end of the spectrum...

[Calamity Cellars]

I was planning the same thing.

[Calamity Cellars]

Another update on the fining trials. It's been a couple of weeks so I am repeating the trials on my riesling. This time I chose the sample addition rates at 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, & 6 lbs per 1000 gallons but followed the exact same procedure. I found that the 4/1000 was the best choice. That is very similar to the the results for the Pinot Gris. I am wishing I had guessed a little better for the Pinot Gris but not enough to go back & do the test again. Tomorrow the Pinot Gris comes out of the freezer and will be racked off the bentonite & tartaric crystals and the riesling will get some bentonite and take it's turn in the freezer. This is all progressing nicely. I am a happy winemaker.

[surlees]

Alan,
I have a question that maybe has already been asked and answered in another thread: Why not use the minimal amount of bentonite that you think may work, then after it has cleared, test again for heat stability and if still not stable, do a second bentonite fining?

Fred

[Calamity Cellars]

Alan,
I have a question that maybe has already been asked and answered in another thread: Why not use the minimal amount of bentonite that you think may work, then after it has cleared, test again for heat stability and if still not stable, do a second bentonite fining?

Fred

Fred, that is a good question. Just to be clear (chuckle chuckle), are you asking why I don't add an estimated minimum amount of bentonite to all of my bulk wine, let it settle, and then take a sample to see if that was enough and then, if not, repeat the processes until I get to the level that I feel the wine is stable?

If so, I see a couple of problems with that method.

One is time. Since the settling out process is about two weeks then this process could potentially take a while since I have no idea where the levels will end up. What if this method ends up taking 3-4 attempts at 2 weeks each X 3 white wines....I am not that patient. Also, and this probably should be a reason of it's own, each time I take the bung out and stir in bentonite and/or rack the wine I am performing an O2 exposure event.

The second reason is that I am adding the known from testing amount of bentonite to the bulk wine and then moving the containers into the 25F freezer for cold stabilization. This method will, in theory, trap the fluffy bentonite precipitate under a layer of crunchy solid tartaric crystals which should yield a more compact and less volatile layer of bad stuff that is easier to rack off and yield less wine lost in the racking process.

The third reason that comes to mind is accuracy. Using the method you have described is not a side by side analysis but a vertical analysis. Having six sample bottles sitting side by side on the counter it is very easy to see what the proper addition level should be.

The last reason is the cool factor. This is a really fun test. I feel like a real scientist doing this. Plus it is a great conversation starter...about wine...to have the samples sitting on the table when friends come over. I know this last reason is not really a reason at all but it is a great side effect.

[Calamity Cellars]

Alan,
I have a question that maybe has already been asked and answered in another thread: Why not use the minimal amount of bentonite that you think may work, then after it has cleared, test again for heat stability and if still not stable, do a second bentonite fining?

Fred

I have another answer. If I had experience with fruit from this vineyard and had seen a pattern of past bentonite levels then I would definitely feel comfortable adding that amount and doing a single test to check stability. But in my case this is the first year with fruit from two of my vineyards and only the second year from the third, and from that third I did not even use bentonite last time.

[Michael A]

...it is a great conversation starter...about wine...to have the samples sitting on the table when friends come over. I know this last reason is not really a reason at all but it is a great side effect.

Actually, I would bet that this last reason will sell more wine... (you did go commercial)

[surlees]

Alan,

Fred, that is a good question. Just to be clear (chuckle chuckle), are you asking why I don't add an estimated minimum amount of bentonite to all of my bulk wine, let it settle, and then take a sample to see if that was enough and then, if not, repeat the processes until I get to the level that I feel the wine is stable?

I didn't explain myself very well. I wasn't questioning why you didn't do this. I know you're the mad scientist and I'm not unless I need to be, but then I'm not commercial.

I am considering doing this to about 5 gallons of S. Blanc that I have. If I use what I think is the minimum amount of bentonite and it clears, then great. But, if it doesn't clear, then do you know any reason why I coudn't do a second bentonite fining using the amount that I think will finish the job. I'm assuming there's no reason I can't use benonite more than once. Right?

Fred

[Hammered]

Alan,

I'm interested in how this matches up with the instructions on my small 2 ounce Bentonite packet from Brewcraft. They say to make a slurry and add one to two tablespoons of that slurry to the wine. I did some weighing and calculations and it comes up to 2.86 to 5.72 pounds per 1,000 gallons. How does that match up to the larger scale instructions and your results? Would somewhere in the middle as they suggest be comparable to your results?