Jump to content


Photo

Using Calcium Carbonate


  • Please log in to reply
18 replies to this topic

#1 bushrinker

bushrinker

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 523 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Iola Wi
  • Interests:Gardening, Fishing, WineMaking, Cooking

Posted 14 October 2010 - 12:02 PM

Iíve been reading up on how to try and bring the acid levels down in a finished wine. I now own a ph meter and hope not to have this problem in the future by getting the #ís correct before I pitch my yeast. I have a Blk. Raspberry that has a ph of 3.76 and a T/A of .85 and I have a cherry that has a ph of 3.81 and a T/A reading of .77 or so. I think Iím writing those T/A #ís correctly. Put it this way the T/A of the cherry is more that .7 and a little less than .8, I would like to bring both down to the .65 range. Is this possible with the use of Calcium Carbonate. I was at the Brew Shop the other day and picked some up. Before using it I went back and did some more reading and came across a thread started by Naper wine guy and think I might have gotten it wrong. In that post the consensus I think was that one should use potassium carb instead. I wanted to get both but they only had the one. Now I also read about a site that had a calculator to show how much of a product to add to deacify a wine ( VinoCalc ) I put the #ís in and it said I could use a little over 2 kg of calcium carb to get it closer to the range I would like. I guess the one question would be is, am I correct with the kg or do they mean grams ( these are 5 gallon batchs ) either way I will have to go by a scale to measure this way if someone doesnít give me a simpler way of doing it. Or am I off on this whole idea. REALLY COULD USE SOME HELP. Or would I be better making 2 new batches this year with real low #ís and blending themÖ smileyhelp.gif
Just call me Trink's
Actually call me anything you want
Just don't call me late for supper

#2 naper wine guy

naper wine guy

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 803 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Davidson, NC
  • Interests:Wine, Bears, Wine, Cubs, Wine, Golf, Wine, running - - you get the idea, right?

Posted 14 October 2010 - 01:01 PM

Was your meter calibrated prior to using? I assume the acid content in fruit wines to be higher than that of grapes, but then I would expect the pH number to be lower than what you reported. Is it your intention to backsweeten these wines or serve dry? If you backsweeten, the higher acid concentration would be offset by the sugars reintroduced into your wine.

Lowering TA will raise your pH, and given he numbers you are reporting - I'm not sure you want to go any higher than where you are already at.
In vino veritas.

Rick

#3 Howie

Howie

    Look Out Ernest & Julio

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 4123 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Niagara Falls, NY

Posted 14 October 2010 - 07:03 PM

Calcium carbonate is not recommended for bring down acid levels in finished wines. It is generally only added to fresh juice or must prior to or early in fermentation. The reason is because it will form an insoluble precipitate of very fine particles that do not settle out easily and could make the wine cloudy. Potassium bi-carbonate is a better choice for adjusting acid on a finished wine.
Howie Hart

#4 bushrinker

bushrinker

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 523 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Iola Wi
  • Interests:Gardening, Fishing, WineMaking, Cooking

Posted 15 October 2010 - 09:49 AM

I'm not sure how it got this way. Looking back at my notes I stated that the acid levels were low .2 to .3 it looks like I added 6 tsp. acid blend at the time. I then noted that it tasted very tart when I racked it into secondary. I wonder if I didn't read the results backward at the time. I must have bought my PH meter well after the fact because I have no notes on ph reading. I know I didn't use my ph meter for some time after I bought it because I didn't buy any calibrating solution at the time and it was a while before I got back there to buy it. I also know I didn't know how to do a T/A test using the ph meter with the T/A kit chemicals at the time. I know I was having a hard time in seeing the color change your suppose to see especially in darker wines. I remember back now Wade telling me something about using his ph meter to check T/A but didn't understand what he was saying. I am now a whole lot more comfortable using my ph meter and feel a little bit more confident in the results I'm getting testing ph and t/a. So what to do from here? Like I said I could make a wine with real low #'s and blend the two and let them sit for a year or just make the best with what I got and make this years properly. I do plane on sweetening both of the wines and perhaps now a little sweeter than I had expected to. The wines are less than 10 months old and perhaps just time will solve some of the problem. In the mean time I may order some potassium bi-carbonate and do some bench trials.
Just call me Trink's
Actually call me anything you want
Just don't call me late for supper

#5 naper wine guy

naper wine guy

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 803 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Davidson, NC
  • Interests:Wine, Bears, Wine, Cubs, Wine, Golf, Wine, running - - you get the idea, right?

Posted 15 October 2010 - 09:59 AM

If you are intending on back-sweetening your wine, and the only problem at this point is the tartness, I would not worry too much about your pH number. Just be sure that your SO2 levels are high enough to protect your wine, given the high pH number.

Be certain to add Potassium Sorbate to be certain you've killed off any chance of fermentation restarting once you sweeten and bottle.

Bench trial your sugar addition to eliminate the tartness. You may consider buying some Blackberry juice concentrate to sweeten your wine with as opposed to doing chapitalization via straight sugar addition
In vino veritas.

Rick

#6 bushrinker

bushrinker

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 523 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Iola Wi
  • Interests:Gardening, Fishing, WineMaking, Cooking

Posted 24 October 2010 - 12:55 PM

Ok, Iím bumping back this thread in hopes to really understand what Iím reading and what Iím suppose to be achieving to get a good stable wine in the end. I started another batch of black raspberry using this years fruit. I am doing it a little different this time because I didnít have as many berries this year so I added mulberries. So far this is what I have in the must.

22 lbs. Blk. Raspberry
10 lbs. Mulberry
1 gal. of old orchard Blueberry/Pomagrante juice
1 gal. of water that I brought to boil and dissolved 8 lbs. sugar
6 campden, 5tsp. Nutrient, will be putting in pectic enzymes later tonight
And will be using RC212 yeast

Now here are my #ís. I cooled a sample and sg reads 1.090
PH. Is 3.60 T/A is .80

I guess my question would go something like this,,,,I would like for my PH to be in the 3.45 range and my T/A to be in the .6% range, is this possible to do or do I have to live with these #ís? It is my understanding I could add the calcium carbonate to remove some of the acid but then my PH #ís would be worse, Am I correct? The funny thing is is that it doesnít taste tart at all but I do believe the #ís because I did them twice and I did calibrate meter. So what would you guys and gals do with this must to make it better? smileytoast.gif
Just call me Trink's
Actually call me anything you want
Just don't call me late for supper

#7 sbl

sbl

    Veteran Wine Maker

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 410 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Pensacola, FL
  • Interests:Fruit wines

Posted 24 October 2010 - 08:32 PM

In reply to the first post--it would certainly not be Kilo grams of CaCO3 if you are talking about a 5 gal batch--it would be grams.

Adding CaCO3 will raise the pH and you are pretty high already. As someone said, the sweetness will counter the tartness and pH is pretty important for the protection of your wine--you don't really want to go any higher.

One other reason for using KCO3 is that it adds to the K-Tartrate concentration which can be removed by cold stabilization--that would lower your TA as well.
Bulk aging/clarifying; Merlot, Chocolate Raspberry Port.
Bottled: Blueberry, Choc. Raspberry Port, Stags Leap Cab, Elderberry, Fig, Coastal Red, Bergamais, Merlot, Barolo, Lodi Ranch 11, Napa River Ranch Cab.

#8 bushrinker

bushrinker

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 523 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Iola Wi
  • Interests:Gardening, Fishing, WineMaking, Cooking

Posted 24 October 2010 - 09:22 PM

It seems like so many of my wines come out with #'s like this. One thing I don't get is, is it that all acids will drop with cold stablization or just tartaric? Why is it that I always get these type of #'s? Are these #'s workable? Or is there something I can do to make them better? What could I be doing wrong to make them this way?
Just call me Trink's
Actually call me anything you want
Just don't call me late for supper

#9 sbl

sbl

    Veteran Wine Maker

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 410 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Pensacola, FL
  • Interests:Fruit wines

Posted 25 October 2010 - 06:36 AM

Tartaric acid is the only one that will drop out with cold stabilization in the form of potassium tartrate. I think your target of 0.6 TA is a little lower than most people shoot for and that may be why the pH is a little high. My problem is usually the opposite with blueberry wine--the pH is often to low and I do need to add KCO3 to get it up to 3.2 to 3.3. You can add individual wine acids instead of acid blend (tartaric, malic or citric) each will have slightly different effects on pH and TA.
Bulk aging/clarifying; Merlot, Chocolate Raspberry Port.
Bottled: Blueberry, Choc. Raspberry Port, Stags Leap Cab, Elderberry, Fig, Coastal Red, Bergamais, Merlot, Barolo, Lodi Ranch 11, Napa River Ranch Cab.

#10 bushrinker

bushrinker

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 523 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Iola Wi
  • Interests:Gardening, Fishing, WineMaking, Cooking

Posted 25 October 2010 - 07:26 AM

Great my next batch is going to be the 20 lbs of blueberry I have in freezer. Would a guy be better off adding another fruit to help with the low PH #'s of the blueberry, I do have about 10 lbs of elderberry froze. What do you think adding 10 lbs of blueberry to the must I have now to lower the PH of this must. It might shoot up the acid levels but then add the calcium Carb? Or doesn't it work that way?
Just call me Trink's
Actually call me anything you want
Just don't call me late for supper

#11 Medsen Fey

Medsen Fey

    Fuselier

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 2265 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Fort Lauderdale, FL

Posted 25 October 2010 - 10:54 AM

One thing to keep in mind is that most fruits other than grapes, hawthorn berries and tamarinds have very little tartaric acid so you aren't going to precipitate potassium bitartrate out like you do in grape wines with cold stabilization. So whether you use potasssium bicarbonate or calcium carbonate makes little difference with the fruit wines.

Bushrinker, why are you wanting to adjust the numbers if it doesn't taste tart? You may be much better off just concentrating on how it tastes, rather than trying to get the TA and pH to specific targets. If the acidity isn't excessive, you may be best to leave it where it is and let it age for some time.

Medsen
Lanne pase toujou pi bon.
(Past years are always better)

#12 bushrinker

bushrinker

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 523 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Iola Wi
  • Interests:Gardening, Fishing, WineMaking, Cooking

Posted 25 October 2010 - 11:59 AM

Thanks for the questions Medsen Fey, I guess the answer to why I am trying to adjust the numbers is simply because (I thought I was suppose to) in order to come up with a stable wine. I thought that was why I bought my ph meter. Life was so much easier when I didn't know what the ph and t/a were. I do know why my ph #'s are always going up or is it down? and that's because of the addition of my water. I had a reading of 3.60 before I added the gallon of water I used to dissolve my sugar in. That raised the # to 3.74. as far as the T/A # I was trying to get the number in the range that one of my recipe books says to shoot for. Looking back at the numbers from last years raspberries they were about the same. The only thing was that I think I read the test results wrong and instead of reading, I used 8cc of Sodium Hydroxide therefor I had a reading of .80... I think I read it as I had 2 cc left in the syringe therefor the number was .20 so I ended up adding 6tsp of acid blend and now that wine is to tart for my liking.

I think what I will do from now on is get the numbers as close as possible and not worry from that point on. Plus I think I will stock up on more juices and rely less on adding water. I guess the other thing I have to do is quit trying to understand all the ph and T/A stuff and start trying to understand all the free sulfite stuff so I can be a bit more confidant in my wines stability that way. I guess the thing to do is drink more so I worry less and have less wine to go bad on the racks. smileytoast.gif
Just call me Trink's
Actually call me anything you want
Just don't call me late for supper

#13 Medsen Fey

Medsen Fey

    Fuselier

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 2265 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Fort Lauderdale, FL

Posted 25 October 2010 - 12:09 PM

Knowing the numbers is helpful. With pH, the number helps to guide you on the amount of sulfite you need. A wine with a pH of 3.6 should be no problem from a stability standpoint. Know TA is also useful as it may help you adjust batches from year to year in order to get a consistent result. However, I would always suggest letting your taste buds drive the decisions about how to adjust acidity - you can trust them.
Lanne pase toujou pi bon.
(Past years are always better)

#14 Wade's Wines

Wade's Wines

    Colonel Wade, Bottle Brigade, 3rd Glass

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 16261 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Tennessee, 70mi. South of Nashville
  • Interests:Winemaking
    Auctioneering
    Woodcarving
    Brewing
    Kayaking

Posted 25 October 2010 - 12:15 PM

The TA and pH stuff is slow to sink into my dome too, Bushrinker! The more I mess with it the easier it gets, but it sure seems like baby steps of understanding! You're not alone!
There's doors I just will not peek through when it comes to understanding the chemical analysis of it all, I'm just not ready yet... after 16 or 17 years of playing with this hobby! I'll open one door at a time, and like an overloaded closet, when I get unburied from the avalanche I'll open another.
The good news is this is a very simple hobby until you want to go deeper! Good wine can be made with very little knowledge! The yeast knows what to do, even when we don't! :)
Tennessee Auctioneer, makin' wines and growin' vines!
The Best of Times is Now! :0)

#15 bushrinker

bushrinker

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 523 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Iola Wi
  • Interests:Gardening, Fishing, WineMaking, Cooking

Posted 25 October 2010 - 12:37 PM

Thanks for letting me know I'm not alone there Wade, And Medsen Fey I shall heed yours words and do more testing by taste. I love the art of tasting more than testing anyway. Thanks for the replies. smileycheers.gif By the way this combo of blk. raspberries and mulberry must tastes great. smileytoast.gif
Just call me Trink's
Actually call me anything you want
Just don't call me late for supper




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users