14 replies to this topic

[gregorio]

I've been using Cotes Du Blanc on my small batches of Rose wines and Lallemand/Lalvin products on everything else which is large scale. This year we are ramping up the Rose production and want to switch over to a Lallemand/Lalvin product. I am going to place my annual supplies order but they do not have Red Star. Does anyone have a favorite yeast for fruity/floral Rose wines from Syrah or do you think I should stick with Cotes du Blanc?

[Purple Grin Winery]

I do D47.....some have complained about H2S here. But many with multiple vintages without problem.

Scott

[Peter Lynch]

Greg, looking back on the last 3 years of rose production it seems like 71B-1122 was the yeast of choice for me. Fermentations were clean & without issue and I was always satisfied with the aromatics. 71B, like CdB, is also an ester producer and can ferment at relatively low temps. I would say that it could be safely added to your short list of candidates. Good luck!

[D&S]

Though I do not make Rose's, I can't say enough good things about 71-B. It has produced excellent aromatic, crisp whites for me. In addition, I think 3-4 months sur lies with 71-B is worth the effort for added body. As Peter mentioned, fermentations and sur lies have been trouble free .

[gregorio]

Thanks Peter (and Scott too!). I was hoping you would reply. I remember that Cab Rose of yours being pretty damn great. Both 71B and D47 were recommended by the Lallemand representatives. I might have to try them both to see which one I like better. Maybe a blend?

On a side note, can you tell me how you managed to get the Cab Rose to be low in tannin intensity? I can't seem to bring out enough fruit and floral characters to compete with the tannin and spice. Sangiovese can be this way too if fruit is very ripe. Cab seems to be like this at any ripeness.

[Peter Lynch]

Thanks Peter (and Scott too!). I was hoping you would reply. I remember that Cab Rose of yours being pretty damn great. Both 71B and D47 were recommended by the Lallemand representatives. I might have to try them both to see which one I like better. Maybe a blend?

On a side note, can you tell me how you managed to get the Cab Rose to be low in tannin intensity? I can't seem to bring out enough fruit and floral characters to compete with the tannin and spice. Sangiovese can be this way too if fruit is very ripe. Cab seems to be like this at any ripeness.

Greg,

FWIW here is what I have from my notes on that particular Cab rose:

Source: 2006 Chile (most likely Curico)
Post crush soak: 18-24 hours
Press notes: Manual basket press. That particular rose was the 3rd pressing of that batch. i.e. it was pressed once, broken up, pressed again, broken up and then pressed once more (which is the juice I used). Basically I was gifted it because the winery didn't think it would be of any use.

Starting #s: PH - 3.73, TA - 3.1 SG - 1.096
Adjusted #s: PH: 3.28 TA - 8.8 SG - No change

Yeast: D-47
Post Ferm Treatment: Cold Stabilized, Filtered w/ 1 micron plate & frame.

Final #s: PH - 3.22 SG - 0.992
Bottled: 5 months from PF date

The moral this story is that I didn't do anything in particular to increase fruitiness or smooth out the tannins for that wine. It just was what is was. However, if I was looking to do something like that today I might consider using products like Opti-White (Booster Blanc) and/or Biolees (Sur-Lies) with which I've had good success with rounding out the rough edges of a wine (both red and white) and bringing forth some fruitiness (as a function of perceived sweetness). I don't know if this helps any but best of luck.

[NorthernWiner]

I made a Grenache Rose last year using Lallemand Rhone 4600 that came out real nice. Being a Rhone isolate, it would probably also be a good fit for Syrah.

http://morewinemaking.com/view_product/9475/beerwinecoffee/Dry_Wine_Yeast_-_Rhone_4600_8_g

[Bill Frazier]

"On a side note, can you tell me how you managed to get the Cab Rose to be low in tannin intensity?"

Several weeks ago there was a nice WSJ article about Channing Sisters [Long Island, NY] rose' wines. There was a quote from winemaker Christopher Tracey "even if the grapes don't get ripe we can still make good rose' wine." I have trouble getting my C. Franc grapes ripe so I plan on making C. Franc Rose' wine in the next couple of weeks. I spoke with Christopher about his winemaking technique. He said the grapes are picked specifically for rose' wines and are whole cluster pressed followed by fermentation in stainless steel with white wine yeast. The only color in the wine is that which is extracted during the press. I ordered several of his wines. They were VERY pale color. So far I've only tasted the Merlot Rose'. It was very good and not tannic. The short skin contact time probably is the answer. Greg - your California grapes get very ripe, especially compared to grapes grown in the east. You may have to pick rose' grapes earlier than usual to lower the tannins. BTW, I'm using Rhone 4600 in my wine.

[Joe_Sallo]

Thanks Peter (and Scott too!). I was hoping you would reply. I remember that Cab Rose of yours being pretty damn great. Both 71B and D47 were recommended by the Lallemand representatives. I might have to try them both to see which one I like better. Maybe a blend?

On a side note, can you tell me how you managed to get the Cab Rose to be low in tannin intensity? I can't seem to bring out enough fruit and floral characters to compete with the tannin and spice. Sangiovese can be this way too if fruit is very ripe. Cab seems to be like this at any ripeness.

I do Grenache Rose and always use 71B; tannin is never an issue with Central Valley Grenache though so I'm not much use to you. I have been doing it for several years and can tell you that I did it once as a white and that was a mistake; it needs that short skin contact. It lends itself to Rose making as long as you bump the acid up to balance the heat and sweetness from the excess alcohol. Syrah or any of the fuller bodied reds mentioned would be a completely different animal; why not pull off several samples at differing contact times spaced out at say 4 hour interval to see what comes out best? Maybe consider AR 2000 also, that could give you the bump you desire.

[D&S]

I made a Grenache Rose last year using Lallemand Rhone 4600 that came out real nice. Being a Rhone isolate, it would probably also be a good fit for Syrah.

http://morewinemakin..._Rhone_4600_8_g

I used Rhone 4600 for the first time last Fall. I like it as well. I didn't mention this above because I've only used it in one vintage. It produced nice results with Viognier and with Pinot grigio. Again, the Pinot gris is not a rose', though it does have a hint of copper due to some skin contact during processing. Fermentations were trouble free as were 4 months sur lies. I would certainly use again on either varietal.

Just a comment on Cote de Blanc that I didn't see mentioned above. It can leave some RS, especially when fermented at low temps. I've taken advantage of this with some Rieslings, for example, as many of you have. Though I like the yeast, I'm not sure how I would feel about this if I were using it commercially as Greg is.

[Medsen Fey]

I've used the Rhone 4600 twice (with meads) and have been pleased with the results. I've found it produces a very powerful tropical fruit aroma, but I don't know if you get the same effect with grapes.

[gregorio]

Thank you all! I do like the flavor profile of CdB but am a little worried about the kinetics especially in a high Brix juice. Never thought of 4600. I might do that before D47 from just what I can read in the marketig literature. I'll call Lallemand again and see why they did not mention it the other day.

Very ripe fruit is great for reds but a real challenge for Rose. Because this is kind of a "byproduct" of our regular winemaking, I'd be strung up by my thumbs if I suggested we harvest anything early for a Rose! The rest of my family is kind of one dimensional when it comes to wine; Big California Cabernet, baby! It was like pulling teeth to get other wines into our offering. My dad is just now starting to drink our Merlot and it wins more medals than our Cabernet! Still can't get him to even try the Pinot after 10 years of making it

I wonder if a Lysosyme fining would strip away some of the tannin. I have never aged my Rose on the lees for very long because I always felt it would mute the fruit and crispness a little even though there are benefits to mouth feel. I know Chardonnay can be one dimensional but it really reacts heavily to extended lees contact this way.

I like the idea of different drain times. We always drain within the first hour of crush. I would expect that longer skin contact would make the tannin perception worse but who knows? It will help the color for sure! If we drain too early, Cab and Sangiovese get orange instead of pink. We have to add a few ounces of red per carboy to get the color right.

Thanks again everyone.
Greg

[Crazy Run Ranch]

Hi Greg,
Nice to see a post from you. Up until last year, my go-to rose yeast was M83. My best rose', a Sangiovese, was done with it. Did a Cab rose in '06 that was nice using M83. Mine was a saignee so no pressing and low tannin. I still did a little color adjustment using finished red Cab since Cab is pretty stingy on color in the first couple days.
Last year I switched to Rhone 4600 just because I planning to use that yeast for Viognier and thought it could do double duty as a rose' yeast. I worked well but I think I might prefer the M83 slightly. But its tough making comparisons to different vintages.

[gregorio]

Hi Greg,
Nice to see a post from you. Up until last year, my go-to rose yeast was M83. My best rose', a Sangiovese, was done with it. Did a Cab rose in '06 that was nice using M83. Mine was a saignee so no pressing and low tannin. I still did a little color adjustment using finished red Cab since Cab is pretty stingy on color in the first couple days.
Last year I switched to Rhone 4600 just because I planning to use that yeast for Viognier and thought it could do double duty as a rose' yeast. I worked well but I think I might prefer the M83 slightly. But its tough making comparisons to different vintages.

Hi Steve,
It has been One Crazy Summer (John Cusack, Demi Moore, Bobcat..) but I digress!

I haven't seen M83 before. It sounds like it was isolated with Rose in mind. So, now I have M83, 4600 and 71B to think about. D47 is probably off the list at this point.

Thanks again everyone,
Greg

[Tomer1]

Perhaps GRE is a good choice for high brix.

I really prefer roses with R.S.
Im not a fan of anything bone dry other then reds.