14 replies to this topic

[nickfox45]

A friend of mine has a small vineyard on his family farm, and is looking to stop simply selling his grapes and begin making wine. He'd like to make wine from this season's harvest, but he does not yet have a liquor license. Am I correct that he's not legally allowed to sell any wine that's made prior to getting this license, no matter what stage its in? I thought I remember reading in the past that wine made prior to getting this license could not be sold, but I'm not sure what stage counts as the wine being "made." Is it at crush, at bottling, etc.? My friend definitely wants to play things by the book, but I wasn't sure where to look to find the letter of the law on this one, so I'll trust you all. You've never steered me wrong before!

[Crazy Run Ranch]

Once its fermented its considered wine. States and local permits vary but you usually start with the county, then state, then Fed. If he wants to make wine in advance, it has to be done at a bonded facility then transferred once the farm is fully legal.

[gregmg]

I'm not terribly familiar with the law, but I've heard that's the case from two people who have gone "pro". Wine they made before becoming licensed could not be sold.

You could freeze the must if you have sufficient freezer space. Do you know anyone with room in their commercial freezers. Just a thought.

Greg G.

[Curt]

Hi,
Here in MN it's necessary to be licensed before the harvest to use that year's crop for wine that is for sale. IE harvest in sept with a license in oct not legal but license in sept with a harvest in oct is legal.

[nickfox45]

Thanks for the replies, all. I will look into it at a local level and move up the chain as suggested, but I wanted to make sure I wasn't crazy.

[knotsorich]

Here in NY it is necessary to get the fed TTB permit before you can submit to the state. To submit to the TTB you need to check and get an OK from your local authority. All localities are a bit different in the process. I'm hoping to have my fed permit any time. I needed to send some more pictures yesterday showing locking doors to the winery. One of the pictures showed some of my blue barrels (empty of course) I ferment small batches in. She said they were OK in there, I just can't have anything fermenting yet.

[Calamity Cellars]

In Washington you can do both State & Federal permits simultaneously but the State won't issue a final permit until they receive the TTB permit number. Towards the end of the state process I received a letter of conditional approval from the state with a list of items that needed to be completed and submitting my TTB permit number was the only item on that list. Not sure why this is relevant to your situation but I thought I would share.

[Tomer1]

Cant you simply label it falsly?
People in 2012 will be suprised how a wine made in 2011 aged so quickly.

[Calamity Cellars]

Cant you simply label it falsly?
People in 2012 will be suprised how a wine made in 2011 aged so quickly. [img]http://www.winepress.us/forums/public/style_emoticons/default/[/img]

Are you seriously suggesting that someone lie to the federal government? Really?

[Crazy Run Ranch]

I think the Fed and State can be done concurrently in California as well. But they say that you have to meet local, city. county, whatever codes. In CA, the zoning issues are more rigorous than anything else. So most deal with that first.

[Crazy Run Ranch]

Cant you simply label it falsly?
People in 2012 will be suprised how a wine made in 2011 aged so quickly.

In the US, people get away with all sorts of things only to have tax evasion put them in jail. Alcohol production is all about taxation. In fact a bond is calculated by your max. production times your tax rate (subject to minimums). So you basically pay the taxes in advance.

[Tomer1]

Are you seriously suggesting that someone lie to the federal government? Really?

Yeah I think I just did. donate the taxing part to good cause if you feel like it.

I think the US puts the greatest amount of affort in alcohol taxing then anywhere alse,
How many of these laws originate in immediate post prohebtion and havent been updated since?
Its like forbiding an artist selling his work made before he opened a shop\registered business place (and everything that follows it),
Makes no since to me, talk to your gongress-men. Isnt this their job?
helping out the little guy in terms of billing?

The taxing system is the same in israel you pay VAT and tax in advance and get refunded for it in the end of the tax year.

[WeLoveCab]

Don't over look your local township. I spoke yesterday with the local director of community development and he pointed me at this township ordinence.... He also indicated that it would be "highly unlikely" that I would be issued a permit but that I could write a letter requesting one anyways. Here is the ordinence.

NO-IMPACT HOME-BASED BUSINESS - a business or commercial activity administered or conducted as an accessory use which is clearly secondary to the use as a residential dwelling and which involves no customer, client or patient traffic, whether vehicular or pedestrian, and no pickup, delivery or removal functions to or from the premises, in excess of those normally associated with residential use. The business or commercial activity must satisfy the following requirements:



A. The business activity shall be compatible with the residential use of the property and surrounding residential uses.




B. The business shall employ no employees other than family members residing in the dwelling.




C. There shall be no display or sale of retail goods and no stockpiling or inventory of a substantial nature.




D. There shall be no outside appearance of a business use, including, but not limited to, parking, signs or lights.




E. The business activity may not use any equipment or process which creates noise, vibration, glare, fumes, odors or electrical or electronic interference, including interference with radio or television reception, which is detectable in the neighborhood.




F. The business activity may not generate any solid waste or sewage discharge, in volume or type, which is not normally associated with residential use in the neighborhood.




G. The business activity shall be conducted only within the dwelling and may not occupy more than 25% of the habitable floor area.




The business may not involve any illegal activity.

[Wade's Wines]

Tomer, we'd all send you sympathy cards when you went to a federal pen in the U.S. for selling a thimble full of wine without being legal!

[Tomer1]

Here its so much easyer to sell homemade wines at local farmers market ,
The alcohol is simply looked at as just another comodity,higher percentage (fortified wines for example) doesnt require for additional taxing.
So basically you pay as much tax for beer as for wine.

You would need to step up a notch in terms of licencing when operating a larger winery in an industrial facility since it requires waste manegment,safty and all sorts.
Taxing is still the same by product sold.

Wine has traditionally been produce at home for religious needs,later during the early 1890s Rothschild (from chateau Lafite) set up israel's first wine industry.
Obviously the wines werent as good dou to local taste for sweet table wines.
Anyhow so thats why were not as strict regarding taxing.