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#1 Doyle

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Posted 15 June 2010 - 02:57 PM

I am planning to build a 10x12 wine storage shed on a concrete sport court in our backyard. This will be strictly for storing barrels, Flextanks, Carboys and Kegs of wine. No bottle wine storage in the shed. Our City lets up build up to a 120 sq ft shed without a permit so that pretty much determined the size for me and is more than adequate for this purpose. My Crush, ferments and Press will still take place either on the driveway or in the garage so this is just to get all the barrels and storage out of the garage so the wife can get her car in there after 30 years. LOL.

The shed will be 10x12 with a Gabled roof. I was thinking of using 2x6 studs with R19 bats between the studs and 2" hard foam with reflective side inside of that. I would love to get by with 2x4 construction but have a feeling that the additional insulation is probably worth the extra cost and effort. I don't have the time or carpentry skills of Hammered so I will have one of the local shed companies build this for me. Also means that I can probably go start to finish in a week instead of all summer. I plan to use a room A/C unit to keep it cool in the summer. Winters here are very mild so although we can get frost, freezing is not an issue. Any tips or comments would be appreciated. I'd like to get construction going on this by mid July so it is ready to go in the fall.

..Doyle

#2 bret

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Posted 15 June 2010 - 03:15 PM

Keep us update with pics.
Bret A. Moore, Southwest Nebraska

#3 Calamity Cellars

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Posted 15 June 2010 - 04:15 PM

Since jealousy is one of the seven deadly sins I guess I am one seventh done.

We have the same code but we can build up to 200 sq ft and I have this perfect spot for a 10x20 shed. I'll be watching this topic with keen interest.

Alan Holtzheimer


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#4 BobF

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Posted 15 June 2010 - 04:58 PM

I am planning to build a 10x12 wine storage shed on a concrete sport court in our backyard. This will be strictly for storing barrels, Flextanks, Carboys and Kegs of wine. No bottle wine storage in the shed. Our City lets up build up to a 120 sq ft shed without a permit so that pretty much determined the size for me and is more than adequate for this purpose. My Crush, ferments and Press will still take place either on the driveway or in the garage so this is just to get all the barrels and storage out of the garage so the wife can get her car in there after 30 years. LOL.

The shed will be 10x12 with a Gabled roof. I was thinking of using 2x6 studs with R19 bats between the studs and 2" hard foam with reflective side inside of that. I would love to get by with 2x4 construction but have a feeling that the additional insulation is probably worth the extra cost and effort. I don't have the time or carpentry skills of Hammered so I will have one of the local shed companies build this for me. Also means that I can probably go start to finish in a week instead of all summer. I plan to use a room A/C unit to keep it cool in the summer. Winters here are very mild so although we can get frost, freezing is not an issue. Any tips or comments would be appreciated. I'd like to get construction going on this by mid July so it is ready to go in the fall.

..Doyle


Doyle ... I'm no expert, but the thing that immediately pops into my mind is a concern about temp consistency - not just avoiding extremes, but keeping the temp constant (within reason, of course).

Sounds great though! I wish I had enough wine on hand to have a storage problem :-)

#5 Crazy Run Ranch

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Posted 15 June 2010 - 05:22 PM

Hi Doyle,
I did see your comment to me but I think most of your message was chopped off. The construction that was mentioned in my previous post was actually a cooled room within my 30x50 workshop/winery. I built a wine cellar in one corner using the construction you describe, in fact it is 10x12x8' tall. Since two walls were already insulated with R-19, I used this in the new walls and used 4'x8'x2" thick rigid insulation across the face of the studs. It worked well for me and I'll probably use this same construction style for a barrel room when Mrs. Crazy gets a few of her projects finished. Currently, my barrel storage is in the main area of my winery. It is just R-19 with cooling via whole house fan and night air. It makes me nervous in the heat of summer when mid-day temps creep towards 80. I would think using an A/C unit setup for 60-65 would work well. My only tip, its going to be too small. Consider pulling a permit and going larger. I know because its too small no matter how big you make it wallbash.gif

#6 Hammered

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Posted 15 June 2010 - 05:24 PM

Just a couple thoughts:

You're insulation plan sounds good. You'll end up with R29 or 30 with that scheme. Optionally, you could consider using 2x4 studs at 24" O.C. framed inside the 2x6 studs, staggered between the 2x6 studs and use R13 batts. That may save a few bucks and allow you to add some paneling to the interior if you wanted. Use R38 ceiling insulation batts if possible.

What's going to be the floor? Most sheds have 2x6 framing and 5/8 or 3/4" plywood sheathing. If you've got a wood floor like that, be sure it can handle the loads of whatever wheels (pallet jacks) you'll be imposing, as well as the overall weight of the wine. These sheds aren't typically built for that kind of weight. If you're just going to be able to use the sport court, then that would work great provided you're able to anchor the shed to the ground somehow.

Also, be sure the power is ample for the A/C unit plus all your other equipment and lighting. Oops that's more than a couple. I'd better sign off.

Good luck!

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#7 Blinky

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Posted 15 June 2010 - 08:33 PM

Where I live, we get all four seasons so we have a lot of rain and snow, which means wet ground. First shed I built, over asphalt, I used creosoted landscaping timber, 6 x 6, on the ground and then built the shed off of those, with a wood floor. The flooring rotted out in about 5 years.

Last shed I built, I built it over concrete sidewalk slabs, but it is sitting on a number of paving bricks that raises the whole thing about 4 inches off the ground. I used 2 x 4's on 12 inch centers under 3/4 pressure treated plywood. All the 2 x 4's on the ground level are pressure treated and everything was further given 3 coats of water sealing. I then ran siding right down past the tarpaper covered walls, so that it was level with the bottom edge of the double 2x4 sill plates, all the water drips past the wood with no signs of capillary action getting the moisture up into the walls.

It is 9 years old and solid as the day it was finished. Not sure if that is a concern in Sunny California, but if you are putting in a wooden floor, some kind of air flow might extend the life of the shed.
Roger

#8 Crazy Run Ranch

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Posted 15 June 2010 - 09:03 PM

Optionally, you could consider using 2x4 studs at 24" O.C. framed inside the 2x6 studs, staggered between the 2x6 studs and use R13 batts.


That's a good thought. I used sheet rock over the 2" rigid and used long screws to reach the studs 2" down. For the roof, I added 2x4's between the rafter in order to make hitting wood easier. It was quite a bit of work and required careful measuring and layout of the screws.

#9 Doyle

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Posted 16 June 2010 - 11:04 AM

Thanks all for the help.

The Sport court is 4 inch Concrete with 1/2 inch rebar on 18" centers. It is 30 years old and not a crack in it. I plan to use it for the floor as all of my barrels and Flextanks are on dollies so they can be wheeled around. The shed will be on a double sill as the guy building it does not want the siding sitting on the concrete. The shed will sit on the north side of the yard and it will have a reasonable amount of natural shade. I could use some input on what roof covering to use. It would seem I would want something white or very light to reflect as much California sun as possible.

There is no plan for bottle storage here as I can handle that in other areas. The main problem is that the wife wants to get her sports car into the 2 car garage so I will have some shop area and she has agreed that the car goes out during Crush and Fermentation.

We are also waiting on completion of a kitchen remodel before I start the shed. I have to strike when the iron is hot so I am adding the Shed and also a 4 KW of Solar Electric system (installed yesterday and was still putting out 2 KW at 6:30 last night). The incremental rate on my PGE Electric bill is $0.50/KW and my bill was running $500+/month so the thought of adding more A/C was a bit unnerving without the solar offset. It doesn't bring my bill to zero but it does get it back under $200/month and maybe lower.

Pulling a permit really complicates things as then I get hit with setback rules that really impact the size and placement of the shed. 120 ft sq will easily handle 4 barrels on one side and 4 Flextanks or 4 barrels on the other side with a walkway in the center. With my current situation, that accomodates about 500 gals which is about where my peak is. Since I have no vineyard and buy all my grapes, I think I can handle the mix issues with 3-4 red varietals each year. If things get tight I always have the option of stacking barrels. All of my equipment (Crusher, Press, Fermenters, empty carboys n Kegs are all stored off site at a storage unit so this is strictly for aging storage.

Power is probably limited to 1 20 amp circuit off of my outdoor kitchen. It will only run the A/C unit, some fluorescent lighting and a couple outlets. I really don't plan on using this for any processing other than an occasional racking or pumping operation. The barrels or Flextanks will be wheeled to the garage a few days before any bottling operation.

#10 Hammered

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Posted 16 June 2010 - 02:05 PM

If you're situating it on the sports court, do you have a way to keep water out, and from getting under the mud sill?

Be sure that the bottom plate is pressure treated, including the end cuts. Contractors frequently don't treat the ends and then the owner ends up with hollow wood.

A white comp roof is a good idea for reflecting solar, as would be a light colored metal roof. Unpainted galvanized metal could also be an option.

Steve, Garagiste

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www.Catalyst-Manufacturing.com

Author of The Homebuilt Winery @ www.HomebuiltWinery.com

 

 

#11 Doyle

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Posted 12 June 2012 - 05:31 PM

Well, after 2 years of talking about this shed and thinking about it, Construction started today with pouring of an 8" wide concrete curb that the mud sills will sit on. As originally planned, it will be 10x12 by 8 feet as that can be done without a permit and without any setback limitations. It will have electrical but no plumbing or drain. All of my fermentations and initial process will still be done in and around the garage. ( Wife agrees to have her car out of the garage during Crush!) I'll be taking pictures but it sounds like we will get this completed in about a week at most. Walls are 2x6 with R19 bats and ceiling is gabled 2x6 with R30 and also the foil backed plywood for radiant reflection under energy efficient White composition shingles (wife got overruled on this one). I'll be using an 8000 BTU LG Thru the Wall Air Conditioning unit with the option to add a Cool Bot controller if I have trouble maintaining about 62 degrees. Temperature monitoring will be with the LaCrosse Weather Direct TX60U-Set that interfaces with my internet router, can be monitored on my iPhone or iPad and will send text alerts for out of range temperatures. http://www.ambientweather.com/latx60uset.html
Framing starts tomorrow.

#12 woodyp60

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Posted 12 June 2012 - 05:48 PM

Hi Doyle,

Sounds like a great project. I really like the idea of the Weather Direct hardware. Do you have any way to estimate the energy usage of the LG unit. I was thinking of building a temporary "cool room" in my garage using that LG unit but was curious how much my PG&E bill might go up.

Peter.

#13 Doyle

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Posted 12 June 2012 - 06:00 PM

The LG unit has a 9.8 EER. It will be mounted on the north side of the building so no direct sun on it. It draws a max of 7.5 amps on 120V. I did put the Solar Electric in 2 years ago and my electric bill is paid annually and now runs $600/yr or $50/month. It used to be $400-$500/month before I put in Solar, added LED can lights and went to a very energy efficient DC motor for a pool pump. During the day, because of the Utility plan I am on, my rates are high at $0.31/kwh during Peak hours which is likely when this will run. Pool, Hot tub and some appliances are programmed to only run at night during off peak rates of 9 cents/kwh. Right now I sell back to PGE during the day at $.31/kwh so in the summer months my bill is normally negative. This will change somewhat but hopefully not a lot with all of the insulation I am doing. Because of its location there is almost no direct sun on any of the walls, only the roof. Late afternoon even the roof is shaded by my 2 story house.

#14 jerzy_s

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Posted 12 June 2012 - 11:08 PM

As far as insulation..... you can combine multiple layers but.... make sure there is only ONE vapor barrier. Some insulation comes with vapor barrier built in - so if you don't pay attention - you can get yourself into a pile of trouble....
soon, very soon, I will be invincible.......

#15 Doyle

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Posted 13 June 2012 - 02:44 PM

Here are a few pics. Other than electrical, the rest is all being handled by professionals. Just watching them made me realize that this is not my skillset.
Day 1. The concrete curb has been set and poured.
Attached File  foundation.jpg   150.89K   125 downloads

Day 2. Pressure Treated Mudsill is bolted down. (Can't have those California Earthquakes pushing my shed around)
Attached File  mudsill.jpg   166.75K   149 downloads

Day 2. Framing of walls and roof
Attached File  walls1.jpg   229.79K   161 downloads

Attached File  walls2.jpg   252.72K   144 downloads




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