540 replies to this topic

[cavalierhome]

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Over the last year you folks here at the WinePress have been most kind and helpful. Last October when I came to you and said I was contemplating building a winery I never expected to get such amounts of help and cooperation.

It has been a wonderful trip building the Casinha Vermelha (Little Red House) winery. Over the last 12 months or so I have learned a lot thanks to you guys and I hope I have made it fun for you guys too with my silly movies and posts on the development.

Now the winery is fully setup excepting the bottling equipment that will not be needed for some time.

Now I have to turn my attention to making our first wine.

Over the last few months I have read every book and paper I could find on wine making, I have asked many questions, I have read many of the posts here, and I have even hired a wine consultant to work with me.

All of those things will help me with this first wine attempt but they are not all encompassing.

Here, in this place, there is a wealth of talent and I am hoping to tap into you collective knowledge base.

I hope some of you will be willing to help me build my first wine just as you helped me build the winery.

My wine guy and I have worked out a starting wine plan. We have still some disagreement on some issues and some questions to be hashed out.

I am hoping some of you veteran wine makers will be willing to review what I have so far and help shape it so that it becomes a complete road map.

It is a bit ambitious as things usually are with me.

It is also a bit convoluted and overly complicated but that is because I want to try out as many techniques as possible so that I may steepen my learning cuve.

Keep in mind that for me this is just a practice batch. If it comes out great that would be wonderful but if it does not that is ok too as long as I learn something from it.

My hope is to be able to film all of the wine making and record the equipment at work and the wine making process along with all the mistakes etc so that it also becomes a tool for other future wine makers.

I hope you guys are willing to participate.

Thank you in advance for your help.

The current initial plan has some questions from both me and Bob (the wine consultants working with me from M&M grape). We are discussing these issues and will be talking to Scott and Lavelin to get some clarification and recommendations as well.

The questions are highlighted in different colors.

Here is the current plan.

WINE_PLAN_2008-VER3.htm

Please give me your ideas.

Cheers
Paul

[Howie]

Hi Paul,
It seems you want to approximate a red Bordeaux. I've thought about doing a similar thing for many years and tossed several ideas around in my head (I'm a Lafite fan). That being said, I would not source all the fruit from California. The varieties ripen much different in CA than they do in Bdx. I would think the fruit from Washinton, Long Island or Virginia would more likely resemble Bordeaux, and perhaps even obtaining the fruit from the different areas, including CA. If you haven't tried wines from those areas made from the Bordeaux varieties, I urge you to do so. VA makes some very nice Cab Franc.

[cavalierhome]

Next year we will do a lot more work on the grape sourcing.

This year we are already committed.

Thank you for the ideas. I will keep them in my notes for next year.

[Howie]

...Thank you for the ideas. I will keep them in my notes for next year.

It might be interesting to make a similar blend from other-than-CA grapes next year and do a blind tasting with this year's, next year's and Bordeaux of similar age in 2015 or 2020.

[cavalierhome]

Yes and there is also Chile where they are making amazing wines.

[BlueSkyRanch]

Don't be so fast to suggest all California grapes are similar. There are so many different climates in California
that there is as much variance as there is similarity. Maybe the point should be to choose a variety of sources
and climates as opposed to just other than California. On the other hand at the small scale it's a big help to have
grapes be ripe at the same time...I'll take a look at the plan to check if I've got my own stuff in line.

Keith

[Crazy Run Ranch]

As BSR says, there are huge differences among CA sources of fruit. Often on this site, people seem to suggest that CA fruit is always high Brix/high pH monsters. I crushed some Sonoma County Cabernet fruit this weeked that had nicely browned seeds and small tough berries. Its colds soaking and may pick up a little sugar while soaking but even if it does, the Brix probably won't crack 23 Brix. I haven't yet pick Sangio, Cab Franc, Pinot, and Merlot yet, but I'm not expecting anything over 24 Brix. My Petite Sirah may creep over 24 but I will wait until the seeds are brown and let the sugar go where it will.
I read over the Plan and have a few comments. These are simply my opinions only.

Cleaner - substitute Star San for the SO2 followed with a water rinse.
MLF - Not sure what advantages are expected with this strategy. I would hold off until after pressing. I believe in finishing one at a time.
pH/TA adjustments - evaluate these 2 numbers together not independently.
Pump over - I agree with the comments added. Once a day seems extreme. You may not need cooling and you can get more O2 with more punchdowns.
Barrel age time - commercial wineries release some lower end wines young to manage their cash flow. Since that is not a consideration here, I'm not sure why you would bottle anything at 1 year unless you like where it is and want to bottle it. In fact, the "lesser" quality wine may benefit more from more aging.
Not covered - yeast nutrients. You are not cutting corners so I suggest an analysis for Yeast Assimable Nitrogen and Ammonia. These figures will help you understand if your yeast will need something to increase the Nitrogen which it needs to stay healthy. The Protect and Fermaid K are great products but neither are signifigant sources of N. You may want Actiferm or DAP for that purpose.
In General - you say you want a Bordeaux style of wine. Yet your equipment, oak regime, wine making style, and even goals (fruit forward) all seems very New World. There is nothing wrong with this (similar to my practices) but if you truly want Bourdeaux in style, you will want to look into wild yeast fermentations, partial neutral oak aging, natural MLF, reduced SO2, etc.
You are off to an amazing start! Good luck with your first crush.

[cavalierhome]

As BSR says, there are huge differences among CA sources of fruit. Often on this site, people seem to suggest that CA fruit is always high Brix/high pH monsters. I crushed some Sonoma County Cabernet fruit this weeked that had nicely browned seeds and small tough berries. Its colds soaking and may pick up a little sugar while soaking but even if it does, the Brix probably won't crack 23 Brix. I haven't yet pick Sangio, Cab Franc, Pinot, and Merlot yet, but I'm not expecting anything over 24 Brix. My Petite Sirah may creep over 24 but I will wait until the seeds are brown and let the sugar go where it will.
I read over the Plan and have a few comments. These are simply my opinions only.

Cleaner - substitute Star San for the SO2 followed with a water rinse.
MLF - Not sure what advantages are expected with this strategy. I would hold off until after pressing. I believe in finishing one at a time.
pH/TA adjustments - evaluate these 2 numbers together not independently.
Pump over - I agree with the comments added. Once a day seems extreme. You may not need cooling and you can get more O2 with more punchdowns.
Barrel age time - commercial wineries release some lower end wines young to manage their cash flow. Since that is not a consideration here, I'm not sure why you would bottle anything at 1 year unless you like where it is and want to bottle it. In fact, the "lesser" quality wine may benefit more from more aging.
Not covered - yeast nutrients. You are not cutting corners so I suggest an analysis for Yeast Assimable Nitrogen and Ammonia. These figures will help you understand if your yeast will need something to increase the Nitrogen which it needs to stay healthy. The Protect and Fermaid K are great products but neither are signifigant sources of N. You may want Actiferm or DAP for that purpose.
In General - you say you want a Bordeaux style of wine. Yet your equipment, oak regime, wine making style, and even goals (fruit forward) all seems very New World. There is nothing wrong with this (similar to my practices) but if you truly want Bourdeaux in style, you will want to look into wild yeast fermentations, partial neutral oak aging, natural MLF, reduced SO2, etc.
You are off to an amazing start! Good luck with your first crush.

Thank you for all your advice. Will take all into consideration.

Let's see what happens.... In the end it will at least be fun.

cheers

[Jrocco]

Hi Paul, looks like you put together a very thorough plan. Just a few comments for what they are worth.

Under step 10 item 2 the term for the pump over is delastage.

Under step 15 item 1 you may want to 1) identify the type of oak barrels you will use, such as white american oak, french oak or hungarian, 2) you may want to consider other source of oak instead of chips, such as, cubes or staves. Different types of oak will impart different flavors.

Under step 19 you may want to briefly mention that detailed blending notes will be maintained.

Great job.

[cavalierhome]

Hi Paul, looks like you put together a very thorough plan. Just a few comments for what they are worth.

Under step 10 item 2 the term for the pump over is delastage.

Under step 15 item 1 you may want to 1) identify the type of oak barrels you will use, such as white american oak, french oak or hungarian, 2) you may want to consider other source of oak instead of chips, such as, cubes or staves. Different types of oak will impart different flavors.

Under step 19 you may want to briefly mention that detailed blending notes will be maintained.

Great job.

Thanks and yes I will use those changes. My hope is that this will become my road map each year. And maybe it will help someone else like me that is starting from nowhere.

[dagobob]

Cavalier,
heres my $.02 worth.
In the past few years I've been learning a lot about wines, visiting wineries and tasting A LOT of wines, and I don't like most of the wines. I read a lot about the correct pH/TA and tannins, etc, but one thing that's not discussed too often is the alcohol level. So here's my advice:
For your first batches keep the alcohol level on the lower side, say 11-12% and not near the higher side 14-15%.
I've found that most of the wines that I (and my friends and family) don't like are too HOT or astringent. A wine with a lower alcohol level is more forgiving than one with a higher level, plus its drinkable sooner. I think that you would want to discover your basic vinting errors sooner rather than 3 years of aging later. Now I realize that many are going to chime in and say that you may need higher levels of alcohol to balance and age the wine well, and this is certainly true, but I think for your first attempts its better to error on the side of caution. I think other "amateur" wine drinkers would have an easier time drinking a big red, that is young and a bit unbalanced, but fruity, than a hot, astringent wine that I have to wait 2-3 years to settle down. When you perfect your techniques and recipes (and grape selection) than you can create better wines with perhaps higher alcohol.
Keep in mind that your "average" wine drinker wants something smooth and tasty, and doesn't have the refined palate that you and others in the forum may have. (A lot more people buy light beers than triple bocks)

Hopes this makes sense.

Good Luck.

Bob

[cavalierhome]

Cavalier,
heres my $.02 worth.
In the past few years I've been learning a lot about wines, visiting wineries and tasting A LOT of wines, and I don't like most of the wines. I read a lot about the correct pH/TA and tannins, etc, but one thing that's not discussed too often is the alcohol level. So here's my advice:
For your first batches keep the alcohol level on the lower side, say 11-12% and not near the higher side 14-15%.
I've found that most of the wines that I (and my friends and family) don't like are too HOT or astringent. A wine with a lower alcohol level is more forgiving than one with a higher level, plus its drinkable sooner. I think that you would want to discover your basic vinting errors sooner rather than 3 years of aging later. Now I realize that many are going to chime in and say that you may need higher levels of alcohol to balance and age the wine well, and this is certainly true, but I think for your first attempts its better to error on the side of caution. I think other "amateur" wine drinkers would have an easier time drinking a big red, that is young and a bit unbalanced, but fruity, than a hot, astringent wine that I have to wait 2-3 years to settle down. When you perfect your techniques and recipes (and grape selection) than you can create better wines with perhaps higher alcohol.
Keep in mind that your "average" wine drinker wants something smooth and tasty, and doesn't have the refined palate that you and others in the forum may have. (A lot more people buy light beers than triple bocks)

Hopes this makes sense.

Good Luck.

Bob

It makes perfect sense to me.

My final target is between 12.5% and 13.5%. Of course the grapes may not let me get there, but that is where I would like to be.

I also want to give a lot of attention to acidity. Too many wines are way too acidic these days.

And finally I want to keep the use of SO2 to the minimum needed.

I would prefer a wine that fully matures in 5 years and reaches that moment of peak perfection than a wine that will last 50 years but will never reach that magic moment.

Thanks and cheers.

I really appreciate everyone's input. I take something away from every comment and from every bit of help.

[dagobob]

It makes perfect sense to me.

My final target is between 12.5% and 13.5%. Of course the grapes may not let me get there, but that is where I would like to be.

I also want to give a lot of attention to acidity. Too many wines are way too acidic these days.

And finally I want to keep the use of SO2 to the minimum needed.

I would prefer a wine that fully matures in 5 years and reaches that moment of peak perfection than a wine that will last 50 years but will never reach that magic moment.

Thanks and cheers.

I really appreciate everyone's input. I take something away from every comment and from every bit of help.

I think 13+% alcohol is still too high. I keep mine around 11.5% +/- and I've gotten a lot of complements, even those that don't normally like red wines, liked my Chambourcin and Concord. Also we've tasted A LOT of similar commercial wines to mine, for comparison, and so far, to our "unrefined" tastes, I'm coming out on top.
But, you're right about keeping the acidity down, especially on reds, you'll need higher TA on whites.

[Brad B.]

I don't think 13% is high at all. If you are making a full-bodied red like a Bordeaux style, 13 or 13.5% is right around where you want to be, assuming everything else is in balance (big assumption). A red won't be "big" if alcohol is below 12% or even at 12%. Alcohol adds weight, viscosity, and a touch of sweetness in the mouth. Essential if you want something other than an easy pasta sipper.

It is all about balance. You can have a wine at 15% that doesn't taste hot if everything else is in proportion. It's rare but possible. On the other hand if you have a minimally extracted red at 13% alcohol, that can taste hot because there is nothing else to back up the alcohol.

Edited to add: different grapes support different levels of alcohol. Chambourcin and concord probably can't support much. But I don't think Paul is making either one of those. With a good Cab Sauv, Merlot, Cab Franc blend, go for the 13-13.5% target and if everything else is right, you'll have a nice wine.

[cavalierhome]

I don't think 13% is high at all. If you are making a full-bodied red like a Bordeaux style, 13 or 13.5% is right around where you want to be, assuming everything else is in balance (big assumption). A red won't be "big" if alcohol is below 12% or even at 12%. Alcohol adds weight, viscosity, and a touch of sweetness in the mouth. Essential if you want something other than an easy pasta sipper.

It is all about balance. You can have a wine at 15% that doesn't taste hot if everything else is in proportion. It's rare but possible. On the other hand if you have a minimally extracted red at 13% alcohol, that can taste hot because there is nothing else to back up the alcohol.

I have had a few of those too.

I wish it were easy to just open a great bottle of wine test it and say.... There.... Those are the numbers I want... Let's build that.

We can't every grape is different, every day is different, even I am different from day to day and my taste changes somewhat from day to day.

I think the key word is "balance” and that seems to be the hardest thing to achieve.

Together we can build it