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Suitable Vines For Zone 5b?


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#1 Steve in KC

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Posted 01 September 2008 - 09:34 PM

is there a website that will tell me what vines are the best for this zone?
also, what about pushing the envelope...a bit.

I'm in missouri, so obviously:
norton
noriet
vignoles
chardonnel
etc etc etc

I was hoping to find a vinifera variety that I might be able to fudge or trick into producing well. I've got a good spot (great soil, full sun all day, cold air drains quickly, etc.)

Thanks.
Planned for this year: 6gal Elderberry, 3gal JK's heavy bodied blackberry, 6 gal Persimmon, 6gal Apple, 6gal Niagra, 6gal White Merlot/Straw Island Mist kit

In Primary -3 gal of JK's heavy bodied Blackberry
In Secondary - nada
Undergoing MLF - 5 gal of Baco Noir (8/27/08)
Bulk Aging - 4 gal Concord (from grapes) and elderberry
Bottled- 1 gal Pear/Cinnamon Mead - crap, 1 gal Blueberry Melomel - ok, 4 gal JAO Mead - ok, 6 gal WE Mango Cit. Sym - very good, 1 gal Concord - crap, 6 gal WE Luna Rossa - fantastico!, 1 gal Black and Blue Mead, 1 gal JK's Heavy Bodied Blackberry - to die for (only 1 bottle left! sniff sniff), 3 Gal WE Selection Port - will be good in another 6 months, 2 gal Niagra / Apple blend - wunderbar!

#2 gregmg

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Posted 01 September 2008 - 09:59 PM

QUOTE (Steve in KC @ Sep 1 2008, 11:06 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
is there a website that will tell me what vines are the best for this zone?
also, what about pushing the envelope...a bit.

I'm in missouri, so obviously:
norton
noriet
vignoles
chardonnel
etc etc etc

I was hoping to find a vinifera variety that I might be able to fudge or trick into producing well. I've got a good spot (great soil, full sun all day, cold air drains quickly, etc.)

Thanks.

Cabernet Franc and Riesling are the two most cold hardy vinifera varietals. There are plantings of both in various parts of Missouri. If you can wait until after the harvest, try calling some of the wineries in Hermann to see what their experience has been with vinifera varietals. I'm sure they'd have a lot of advice to offer, and if they aren't in the middle of harvest or crush most would be willing to spend a few minutes on the phone with you.

Also, Double A Vineyards has a fairly complete vine characteristics chart online.

Greg G.

#3 Steve in KC

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Posted 02 September 2008 - 06:57 AM

Thanks.

I will be in Hermann on the 19th of this month and plan on doing a LOT of question asking. smile.gif

Also, I saw that Petit Sirah is rated as zone 6. In the 1990 hardiness guide, I'm a 5b, but with the recent update made in 2006, I'm a 6, so I might give it a stab as well.
Planned for this year: 6gal Elderberry, 3gal JK's heavy bodied blackberry, 6 gal Persimmon, 6gal Apple, 6gal Niagra, 6gal White Merlot/Straw Island Mist kit

In Primary -3 gal of JK's heavy bodied Blackberry
In Secondary - nada
Undergoing MLF - 5 gal of Baco Noir (8/27/08)
Bulk Aging - 4 gal Concord (from grapes) and elderberry
Bottled- 1 gal Pear/Cinnamon Mead - crap, 1 gal Blueberry Melomel - ok, 4 gal JAO Mead - ok, 6 gal WE Mango Cit. Sym - very good, 1 gal Concord - crap, 6 gal WE Luna Rossa - fantastico!, 1 gal Black and Blue Mead, 1 gal JK's Heavy Bodied Blackberry - to die for (only 1 bottle left! sniff sniff), 3 Gal WE Selection Port - will be good in another 6 months, 2 gal Niagra / Apple blend - wunderbar!

#4 Nanook37

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Posted 02 September 2008 - 09:23 AM

I know people in the area who are growing Cab Franc, Cab Sauv, Zwiegelt, Pinot Gris, Chardonnay and Moudevre as well the Norton, Chamboursin, Vidal, etc..

#5 gregmg

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Posted 02 September 2008 - 10:08 AM

There's at least one winery in southern Missouri producing a very decent Syrah. I've tried it, but I can't remember the name.

I've heard of wineries farther north producing other vinifera varietals. In fact, there are a few midwest wineries that are members of the Meritage association. Meritage red wines can't be made entirely of Cab Franc, so they must be growing some Merlot, Cab Sauv, Petite Verdot, or Malbec.

Certainly Cab Franc and Riesling aren't your only vinifera choices, but they may be your best.

Greg G.

#6 gregmg

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Posted 02 September 2008 - 10:13 AM

QUOTE (Steve in KC @ Sep 2 2008, 08:29 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I will be in Hermann on the 19th of this month and plan on doing a LOT of question asking. smile.gif

One thing I've noticed about the wineries in the midwest is that quite often the person pouring the wines has no clue how they are made. Questions like, "What kind of oak was this wine aged on?" draw blank stares. You may need to ask to speak to the manager or viticulturist.

Greg G.

#7 Nanook37

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Posted 02 September 2008 - 10:37 AM

Actually I have normally found the same thing at most California wineries unless you are at the small ones



QUOTE (gregmg @ Sep 2 2008, 11:45 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
One thing I've noticed about the wineries in the midwest is that quite often the person pouring the wines has no clue how they are made. Questions like, "What kind of oak was this wine aged on?" draw blank stares. You may need to ask to speak to the manager or viticulturist.

Greg G.


#8 Steve in KC

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Posted 02 September 2008 - 11:20 AM

QUOTE (gregmg @ Sep 2 2008, 11:45 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
One thing I've noticed about the wineries in the midwest is that quite often the person pouring the wines has no clue how they are made. Questions like, "What kind of oak was this wine aged on?" draw blank stares. You may need to ask to speak to the manager or viticulturist.

Greg G.


yeah, I already knew to ask someone other than the 'hired help'.

The only exception that I know of is Bammarito. That guy is AWESOME! If it's slow, he'll take you for a ride in the golf cart and talk your leg off. Just like Sandor.
Planned for this year: 6gal Elderberry, 3gal JK's heavy bodied blackberry, 6 gal Persimmon, 6gal Apple, 6gal Niagra, 6gal White Merlot/Straw Island Mist kit

In Primary -3 gal of JK's heavy bodied Blackberry
In Secondary - nada
Undergoing MLF - 5 gal of Baco Noir (8/27/08)
Bulk Aging - 4 gal Concord (from grapes) and elderberry
Bottled- 1 gal Pear/Cinnamon Mead - crap, 1 gal Blueberry Melomel - ok, 4 gal JAO Mead - ok, 6 gal WE Mango Cit. Sym - very good, 1 gal Concord - crap, 6 gal WE Luna Rossa - fantastico!, 1 gal Black and Blue Mead, 1 gal JK's Heavy Bodied Blackberry - to die for (only 1 bottle left! sniff sniff), 3 Gal WE Selection Port - will be good in another 6 months, 2 gal Niagra / Apple blend - wunderbar!

#9 Antique Tractor Puller

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Posted 02 September 2008 - 11:30 AM

Hi Steve
How many arces are you planting?

Hal
Belton,MO

#10 Steve in KC

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Posted 02 September 2008 - 12:21 PM

QUOTE (Antique Tractor Puller @ Sep 2 2008, 01:02 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Hi Steve
How many arces are you planting?

Hal
Belton,MO


LOL. I WISH!

I have a double lot, so I have right at ONE (1) acre, including where the house and shed sit!

I plan to have 4-60 foot rows flanking my path to the garden. If I plant at 6' spacings I should be able to squeeze in 40 vines.

of course, that doesn't count the:
persimmon tree
blackberries (20)
raspberries (10)
blue berries (3)
walnut trees (2)
elderberry bushes (5)
Planned for this year: 6gal Elderberry, 3gal JK's heavy bodied blackberry, 6 gal Persimmon, 6gal Apple, 6gal Niagra, 6gal White Merlot/Straw Island Mist kit

In Primary -3 gal of JK's heavy bodied Blackberry
In Secondary - nada
Undergoing MLF - 5 gal of Baco Noir (8/27/08)
Bulk Aging - 4 gal Concord (from grapes) and elderberry
Bottled- 1 gal Pear/Cinnamon Mead - crap, 1 gal Blueberry Melomel - ok, 4 gal JAO Mead - ok, 6 gal WE Mango Cit. Sym - very good, 1 gal Concord - crap, 6 gal WE Luna Rossa - fantastico!, 1 gal Black and Blue Mead, 1 gal JK's Heavy Bodied Blackberry - to die for (only 1 bottle left! sniff sniff), 3 Gal WE Selection Port - will be good in another 6 months, 2 gal Niagra / Apple blend - wunderbar!

#11 gregmg

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Posted 02 September 2008 - 01:05 PM

QUOTE (Steve in KC @ Sep 2 2008, 01:53 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I plan to have 4-60 foot rows flanking my path to the garden. If I plant at 6' spacings I should be able to squeeze in 40 vines.

I wish I had room for 40 vines. I've managed to find room for 24 between my backyard and a friend's property. I may be abe to squeeze in one or two more.

40 vines = ~40 gallons = ~200 bottles

That's a fair amount of vino.

Greg G.

#12 Bill Frazier

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Posted 02 September 2008 - 10:13 PM

"I'm in missouri, so obviously:
norton
noriet
vignoles
chardonnel
etc etc etc

I was hoping to find a vinifera variety that I might be able to fudge or trick into producing well. I've got a good spot (great soil, full sun all day, cold air drains quickly, etc.)"

Steve - I'm in Olathe. I grow Cabernet Franc and Chardonnay and other varities. These were planted in 2002 and 2004 respectively. They have less disease problems than Chambourcin. Just today I picked over 200 lbs Chardonnay at perfect numbers...22brix, pH 3.2, acid 0.75%, dark brown seeds and great taste. The C. Franc won't be ready until late September. I found that Chardonel grew well for several years and then began to fade away. I replaced with Chardonnay. I also grow Pinto Gris and Merlot although it's too early to say if they will thrive here...however the P. Gris look like they will be a great addition to the vineyard. Here's a couple of pictures taken this week-
[attachment=8254:attachment] [attachment=8255:attachment]
Bill Frazier

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#13 oldjenx

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Posted 03 September 2008 - 04:26 AM

QUOTE (Bill Frazier @ Sep 2 2008, 11:45 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I grow Cabernet Franc and Chardonnay and other varities. These were planted in 2002 and 2004 respectively. They have less disease problems than Chambourcin.

Bill, that's a very interesting comment. Other sources, including the midwest spray guide, don't seem to support that view. I recall that you have had big problems with black rot. Is that the reason you see more disease?

#14 Shane72

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Posted 03 September 2008 - 10:50 AM

So what is the official U.S. hardiness zone website? I'm planning my first planting in the Spring, and I'm getting conflicting zones-- either 5b or 6. I'm in central Illinois.

Thanks,
Shane

#15 knotsorich

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Posted 03 September 2008 - 12:08 PM

QUOTE (Shane72 @ Sep 3 2008, 01:22 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
So what is the official U.S. hardiness zone website? I'm planning my first planting in the Spring, and I'm getting conflicting zones-- either 5b or 6. I'm in central Illinois.

Thanks,
Shane


The safest stance to take would be to grow the majority of grapes that are rated for the colder 5b so they are prepared for that cold. Then if you want to gamble with a couple vines, go with 6 for those few. Then if you lose them or you don't care if you get a crop or not, you won't get dissapointed.




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