Jump to content


Photo

Using H202 (hydrogen Peroxide) To Remove S02


  • Please log in to reply
11 replies to this topic

#1 hz3gzy

hz3gzy

    Look Out Ernest & Julio

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1507 posts
  • Location:Michigan

Posted 16 June 2008 - 04:55 AM

I rack 5a gallon carboy of wine this past wekend, second pressed Pinot Noir that I made in December. My 10 year son helped me and dump in a very strong S02 solution of S02 that was in the popper into the carboy before I racked them into 1 gallon jugs. I measured the free S02 with a titrat and it was over the 100ppm line and you could smell the S02 when I went to taste it. I tryed to splas rack it again but it did not make a difference. I was wondering if anybody has ever tried to remove unwanted S02 using Hydrogen Peroxide? I would like to experiment with it since this is a False wine and not an expensive wine to ruin.
Any help would be appreciated!

#2 Peter Lynch

Peter Lynch

    Look Out Ernest & Julio

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 2259 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Princeton, NJ USA
  • Interests:Making Wine
    Snowboarding
    Yoga, helps snowboarding ;)
    Drumming
    Keeping wife happy (See item #1)

Posted 16 June 2008 - 07:29 AM

QUOTE (hz3gzy @ Jun 16 2008, 07:27 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I rack 5a gallon carboy of wine this past wekend, second pressed Pinot Noir that I made in December. My 10 year son helped me and dump in a very strong S02 solution of S02 that was in the popper into the carboy before I racked them into 1 gallon jugs. I measured the free S02 with a titrat and it was over the 100ppm line and you could smell the S02 when I went to taste it. I tryed to splas rack it again but it did not make a difference. I was wondering if anybody has ever tried to remove unwanted S02 using Hydrogen Peroxide? I would like to experiment with it since this is a False wine and not an expensive wine to ruin. Any help would be appreciated!
Bummer. The thing to remember when using H2O2 to lower S02 levels is the H2O2 reacts only with molecular SO2 (one of the 3 forms of free SO2 in wine). This form represents only a small fraction of the free SO2 in wine but it is the one responsible for the smell. Once reacted the equilibrium (which is PH dependent) between the 3 forms readjusts but it is one of the reasons H2O2 must be added slowly and carefully mixed otherwise a local concentration of H2O2 will rapidly deplete the localized molecular SO2 and start oxidizing other elements (like ethanol to form acetaldehyde). Here are a couple of links on the use of H2O2 in sulfite reduction:Many see H2O2 as an option of last resort (as it is capable of oxidizing many other elements in the wine) but given the practical limitations of other SO2 reduction methods to remove very high levels of SO2 this may be your only option. However, trials are a must to determine at what point the wine becomes drinkable again - you may find that you may not need to hammer it as much as you might think and in this case less (H2O2) is certainly more. Good luck! smileytoast.gif
Visit my winepress blog to see what I've got going. Comments welcome...

#3 hz3gzy

hz3gzy

    Look Out Ernest & Julio

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1507 posts
  • Location:Michigan

Posted 16 June 2008 - 07:36 AM

QUOTE (Peter Lynch @ Jun 16 2008, 10:01 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Bummer. The thing to remember when using H2O2 to lower S02 levels is the H2O2 reacts only with molecular SO2 (one of the 3 forms of free SO2 in wine). This form represents only a small fraction of the free SO2 in wine but it is the one responsible for the smell. Once reacted the equilibrium (which is PH dependent) between the 3 forms readjusts but it is one of the reasons H2O2 must be added slowly and carefully mixed otherwise a local concentration of H2O2 will rapidly deplete the localized molecular SO2 and start oxidizing other elements (like ethanol to form acetaldehyde). Here are a couple of links on the use of H2O2 in sulfite reduction:Many see H2O2 as an option of last resort (as it is capable of oxidizing many other elements in the wine) but given the practical limitations of other SO2 reduction methods to remove very high levels of SO2 this may be your only option. However, trials are a must to determine at what point the wine becomes drinkable again - you may find that you may not need to hammer it as much as you might think and in this case less (H2O2) is certainly more. Good luck! smileytoast.gif


Actually I down loaded this info last week and thats why I would like to give it a shot. Once I add this H202 will it be drinkable right away? I know that you can't drink H202 out of the bottle so how will affect the person consuming the wine?

#4 Peter Lynch

Peter Lynch

    Look Out Ernest & Julio

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 2259 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Princeton, NJ USA
  • Interests:Making Wine
    Snowboarding
    Yoga, helps snowboarding ;)
    Drumming
    Keeping wife happy (See item #1)

Posted 16 June 2008 - 07:41 AM

QUOTE (hz3gzy @ Jun 16 2008, 10:08 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Actually I down loaded this info last week and thats why I would like to give it a shot. Once I add this H202 will it be drinkable right away? I know that you can't drink H202 out of the bottle so how will affect the person consuming the wine?
My impression is the reaction rates are pretty quick but some standing time (as mentioned in the Australian article) is probably prudent. Since H2O2 will react pretty aggressively with the SO2 and/or other wine elements I believe it's unlikely that any H2O2 will be around in the wine to cause any problems. smileytoast.gif
Visit my winepress blog to see what I've got going. Comments welcome...

#5 Doyle

Doyle

    Look Out Ernest & Julio

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 3822 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Sunnyvale, CA
  • Interests:Winemaking, Home Theater, RC Planes, Ham Radio, Solar Electric

Posted 16 June 2008 - 10:38 AM

As many of you know, I have about 40 gals of Syrah that got over sulfited. I have been using Nitrogen Sparging and was able to reduce the level from 370 ppm to about 210 ppm. With Father's day weekend I wasn't able to run any tests this weekend but am going to try and start tonight with some bench tests using very dilute peroxide and mixing. As the articles suggest, I am going to do this in a stepwise manner and only try to drop the concentration maybe 50 ppm at a time and even with that it will be a slow injection of H2O2 over a period of time with gentle stirring.

..Doyle

#6 hz3gzy

hz3gzy

    Look Out Ernest & Julio

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1507 posts
  • Location:Michigan

Posted 16 June 2008 - 10:54 AM

QUOTE (Doyle @ Jun 16 2008, 01:10 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
As many of you know, I have about 40 gals of Syrah that got over sulfited. I have been using Nitrogen Sparging and was able to reduce the level from 370 ppm to about 210 ppm. With Father's day weekend I wasn't able to run any tests this weekend but am going to try and start tonight with some bench tests using very dilute peroxide and mixing. As the articles suggest, I am going to do this in a stepwise manner and only try to drop the concentration maybe 50 ppm at a time and even with that it will be a slow injection of H2O2 over a period of time with gentle stirring.

..Doyle


Doyle, sorry to here about your 40 gallons. I am am only having a S02 problem myself with 5 gallons of second pressed wine but I think this a good opportunity to do some bench trails on different methods on reducing S02. I do have a C02 tank that I could try to sparge my wine but could you give a little detail of how you did this. I am thinking I only need to drop about 50ppm of S02 to make this wine approachable.

#7 Doyle

Doyle

    Look Out Ernest & Julio

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 3822 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Sunnyvale, CA
  • Interests:Winemaking, Home Theater, RC Planes, Ham Radio, Solar Electric

Posted 17 June 2008 - 02:25 PM

With the Sparging, I purchased a 0.5 micron stainless oxygenation stone from Morewine and then set the Nitrogen pressure at about 8 -10 psi and let it bubble in the bottom of the wine. It works with either Nitrogen or Argon but Nitrogen is a lot cheaper. We started with a small batch but were able to reduce from about 370 down to just under 220. I am now running some tests with very dilute Peroxide and introducing it slowly over a period of time to let the wine equilibriate and then rest for at least 6-8 hours and then doing another addition. I will be taking some measurements tonight but expect that I won't have any concrete results until this weekend.

..Doyle

#8 hz3gzy

hz3gzy

    Look Out Ernest & Julio

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1507 posts
  • Location:Michigan

Posted 18 June 2008 - 05:18 AM

QUOTE (Doyle @ Jun 17 2008, 04:57 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
With the Sparging, I purchased a 0.5 micron stainless oxygenation stone from Morewine and then set the Nitrogen pressure at about 8 -10 psi and let it bubble in the bottom of the wine. It works with either Nitrogen or Argon but Nitrogen is a lot cheaper. We started with a small batch but were able to reduce from about 370 down to just under 220. I am now running some tests with very dilute Peroxide and introducing it slowly over a period of time to let the wine equilibriate and then rest for at least 6-8 hours and then doing another addition. I will be taking some measurements tonight but expect that I won't have any concrete results until this weekend.

..Doyle


Doyle the Ben Rotter info says to use 16mg per liter. I do not have a gram scale so would you know the volume of H202 needed per liter? Is there a conversion method used to convert mg to either cc's or ml's?

#9 The Bulldog

The Bulldog

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 544 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Philo, Mendocino County, CA

Posted 18 June 2008 - 09:09 AM

QUOTE (Doyle @ Jun 17 2008, 01:57 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
With the Sparging, I purchased a 0.5 micron stainless oxygenation stone from Morewine and then set the Nitrogen pressure at about 8 -10 psi and let it bubble in the bottom of the wine. It works with either Nitrogen or Argon but Nitrogen is a lot cheaper. We started with a small batch but were able to reduce from about 370 down to just under 220. I am now running some tests with very dilute Peroxide and introducing it slowly over a period of time to let the wine equilibriate and then rest for at least 6-8 hours and then doing another addition. I will be taking some measurements tonight but expect that I won't have any concrete results until this weekend.

..Doyle


Doyle,

You have the key to the peroxide addition, very very slowly. If you hit it with a slug of peroxide it will bind up and give you off aromas and a myriad of other problems.

Good luck,

Fred
Fred R. Buonanno
Owner
Philo Ridge Vineyards
Mendocino Wine Grapes and Wine
www.philoridge.com
www.mendocinowinegrapes.com

#10 hz3gzy

hz3gzy

    Look Out Ernest & Julio

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1507 posts
  • Location:Michigan

Posted 18 June 2008 - 11:32 AM

QUOTE (hz3gzy @ Jun 18 2008, 07:50 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Doyle the Ben Rotter info says to use 16mg per liter. I do not have a gram scale so would you know the volume of H202 needed per liter? Is there a conversion method used to convert mg to either cc's or ml's?


Anybody else on this conversion?

#11 Doyle

Doyle

    Look Out Ernest & Julio

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 3822 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Sunnyvale, CA
  • Interests:Winemaking, Home Theater, RC Planes, Ham Radio, Solar Electric

Posted 18 June 2008 - 05:15 PM

I not only have the conversion, I made a spreadsheet that calculates the amount.
Basically I took the information from this part of the document and used it to create a spreadsheet that allows me to enter the starting free SO2 level, Target SO2 and the volume of wine and it calculates the number of ml of 3% peroxide that needs to be added. Here is the example from the section of the article I am referring to.
-----------------------------------------------
15 litres of wine has a free SO2 level of 70 mg/l. It is desired to reduce this to 40 mg/l. The reduction of 30 mg/l (70-40) requires an H2O2 addition of 16 mg/l (0.5304*30). Thus, the 15 litres requires an addition of 240 mg (15*16) of H2O2. Using a 3% mass/mass solution of H2O2, 7.9 ml (240/30.3) of the solution needs to be added to the 15 litres for the drop to 40 mg/l.
----------------------------------------------------

Basically it works out to about a half a milliliter of 3% H202 to get a 40 ppm reduction in 1 liter of wine using a mass mass (ratio of molecular weights) calculation.

After reading the part about slowly introducing it I decided to dilute the peroxide even further. So I did a 0.3% solution 9 parts water to 1 part 3% H202
For the 750 ml. For the test I was running, I needed just under 1 ml of 3% solution so that was about 9 ml of the mix. To add it, I used a 2 ml pipette and filled the pipette. Then inserting the pipette fully into the wine, I slowly raised it while doing a gentle stirring. The 2 ml metered out very slowly. I repeated this until I had used all 9 ml. I did this one night and then the next morning repeated it. That night when I got home I measured the sulfite level being careful to use the same timing on the A/O system that I had before and I now measured 104 ppm. (major reduction! luxhello.gif luxhello.gif ) I smelled and tasted the wine and the sulfite smell had been significantly reduced although still present. I could also taste the sulfite but much less than before and now I could also taste the fruit taste of the syrah. So, once again I introduced another 2 doses of Peroxide using the same method and will measure that tonight. With this test, I want to take the sulfite all the way down just to see what condition that leaves the wine in. Then I will know how much margin I have in the process. I was thinking for a large volume, I could use a racking cane to introduce the peroxide into a carboy or Keg. I am also thinking of using a light N2 Sparging during the time of introduction just to ensure good mixing. I hope to have a definitive process down by this weekend if the tests work out. I can email the Excel spreadsheet to anyone that wants it although I should probably clean it up a little so give me a few days on that.

..Doyle

#12 Doyle

Doyle

    Look Out Ernest & Julio

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 3822 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Sunnyvale, CA
  • Interests:Winemaking, Home Theater, RC Planes, Ham Radio, Solar Electric

Posted 19 June 2008 - 08:42 AM

A little more update. Last night I measured the SO2 level and it was essentially at zero. (4 ppm) The sulfite smell was completely gone along with the sulfite taste. The wine appears to have lost some amount of flavor and structure although not bad and when I blended it 50:50 with some cab it was very good. I need to run some additional tests this weekend as it is very possible that the Nitrogen sparging removed the aromatics and some of the flavor components. So, I will try some reductions where I do all of the reduction using gentle peroxide treatments to see if there is a difference in flavor and aroma. Keep in mind that we started at 370 ppm of sulfite which was a gross over addition. The fact that we are able to even get something drinkable after that is really exciting.

Anyone wanting a copy of the spreadsheet should drop me a PM with their email address on it as it doesn't look like I can attach an excel spreadsheet to forum mail.

..Doyle




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users