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Fermaid, Fermax, Dap


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#1 rwintle

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Posted 01 June 2008 - 05:30 PM

From what I have been reading, it appears that you do not need to use DAP if you are using Fermaid-K as it contains DAP.

I was reading an article on morewinemaking.com about this and they suggest a Go-Ferm and Fermaid-K routine.

What are the thoughts on the use of DAP with either Fermaid or Fermax along with the dosage you tend to use throughout the fermentation.

Thanks!

--Rod

#2 Peter Lynch

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Posted 01 June 2008 - 07:23 PM

QUOTE (rwintle @ Jun 1 2008, 08:02 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
What are the thoughts on the use of DAP with either Fermaid or Fermax along with the dosage you tend to use throughout the fermentation.
Rod, it is unfortunate that there isn't (as far as I know) a simple test home winemakers can use to assess YAN (yeast assimilable nitrogen). Most wine texts (advanced) recommend ascertaining existing must YAN before embarking on a nutrient strategy. However, assuming YAN can be determined, it is not unusual to combine DAP with Fermaid in low nitrogen conditions. Here is a Vinquiry chart outlining general recomendations - Nutrient Guidelines with Fermaid K smileytoast.gif
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#3 Jrocco

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Posted 01 June 2008 - 08:32 PM

I happend to stumble upon the reference Peter mentioned from Vinquiry. Since YAN is something not generally available to home winemakers I avoid using DAP with a nutrient that contains DAP.
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#4 Peter Lynch

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Posted 01 June 2008 - 08:48 PM

QUOTE (Jrocco @ Jun 1 2008, 11:04 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I happend to stumble upon the reference Peter mentioned from Vinquiry. Since YAN is something not generally available to home winemakers I avoid using DAP with a nutrient that contains DAP.
Jrocco, I don't know, even in the absence of YAN numbers, that DAP avoidance would be the way I would go in all circumstances. Generally DAP is used to help avoid yeast H2S production and its introduction during the log phase (after 6-12 hours) of fermentation is critical in this regard. I don't know my YANs and as such I will generally add the recommended early Fermaid dosage as an insurance policy then closely evaluate (by aroma) any sulfur blow off during the next day or two. If things seem fine I may add a reduced dose at 1/3 Brix depletion or if I sense any sulfur odors I may add the full recommended dosage (and even a little DAP if I feel nervous). It certainly isn't the optimum way to go about it but given the alternative (significant H2S production) I willing to risk a little extra nitrogen in my wine. Of course, past experience with certain grapes, fermentation speed and nitrogen strain recommendations are also a factor in how much I might add or not. smileytoast.gif
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#5 gregorio

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Posted 01 June 2008 - 09:31 PM

QUOTE (Peter Lynch @ Jun 1 2008, 08:20 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Jrocco, I don't know, even in the absence of YAN numbers, that DAP avoidance would be the way I would go in all circumstances. Generally DAP is used to help avoid yeast H2S production and its introduction during the lag phase (first 6-12 hours) of fermentation is critical in this regard. I don't know my YANs and as such I will generally add the recommended early Fermaid dosage as an insurance policy then closely evaluate (by aroma) any sulfur blow off during the next day or two. If things seem fine I may add a reduced dose at 1/3 Brix depletion or if I sense any sulfur odors I may add the full recommended dosage (and even a little DAP if I feel nervous). It certainly isn't the optimum way to go about it but given the alternative (significant H2S production) I willing to risk a little extra nitrogen in my wine. Of course, past experience with certain grapes, fermentation speed and nitrogen strain recommendations are also a factor in how much I might add or not. smileytoast.gif


Hey Peter,
Where did you pick up adding DAP in lag to be critical? My notes from both a Lallemand seminar and a UC Davis text say that Nitrogen has deleterious effects on young yeast. Vinquiry recommends we use GoFerm or equivilent (no added Nitrogen) in the hydration/lag phase and Fermaid at 1/4 - 1/3 stage. We don't test for YAN but might do it on our Merlot this year to see if we can get MLF sped up a little.
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#6 Peter Lynch

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Posted 01 June 2008 - 09:55 PM

QUOTE (gregorio @ Jun 2 2008, 12:03 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Hey Peter, Where did you pick up adding DAP in lag to be critical? My notes from both a Lallemand seminar and a UC Davis text say that Nitrogen has deleterious effects on young yeast. Vinquiry recommends we use GoFerm or equivilent (no added Nitrogen) in the hydration/lag phase and Fermaid at 1/4 - 1/3 stage. We don't test for YAN but might do it on our Merlot this year to see if we can get MLF sped up a little.
Greg, sorry, it's late and I should have not said lag but rather log aka exponential growth phase. Thanks for catching - I'll correct the original post.
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#7 rwintle

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Posted 05 June 2008 - 12:23 PM

Unfortunately, as Peter stated, we really do not have a way to measure YAN.

With that said, what do folks use as a guideline for DAP, Fermaid K, Go-Ferm, Fermax, etc?

Thanks!

--Rod




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