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Presure Treated Vineyard Line Posts


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#1 nychris

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Posted 04 February 2007 - 08:08 AM

Hello all,

Can anyone tell me if useing presure treated( Treated with Cromated Copper Arsenate)(CCA) End and Line posts presents any problems to the vines or wine.

Thanks.

#2 vine2wine

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Posted 04 February 2007 - 08:56 AM

QUOTE (nychris @ Feb 4 2007, 09:40 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Hello all,

Can anyone tell me if useing presure treated( Treated with Cromated Copper Arsenate)(CCA) End and Line posts presents any problems to the vines or wine.

Thanks.


I don't believe that CCA leaches out of the posts in enough concentration or distance to affect the vines. I have never seen a study to prove that but don't think there's a problem with using CCA. However, just to be on the safe side I use posts treated with Alkaline Copper Quanternary (ACQ). ACQ is not as toxic as CCA and supposedly works as well. There again, I've never seen a study comparing the two and there might be other wood preservatives that work just as well with even less toxicity.

#3 Hollywood Hill Vineyards

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Posted 04 February 2007 - 09:18 AM

QUOTE (nychris @ Feb 4 2007, 06:40 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Hello all,

Can anyone tell me if useing presure treated( Treated with Cromated Copper Arsenate)(CCA) End and Line posts presents any problems to the vines or wine.

Thanks.


Not really. Arsenic (the main culprit in pressure treated lumber) does not move very far from the posts. It's a heavy metal that isn't very water soluble. I think I remember studies that showed that it didn't more than a couple of inches from the posts and not very deep into the soil. You get more exposure from handling the posts (Wear gloves!). The roots of the vine are deeper than the arsenic can travel into the soil and the vines do not have a propensity to take up arsenic.

I have a little experience with this since my previous vineyard was heavily contaminated with Arsenic, Lead and Cadmium from the Asarco smelter in Tacoma, WA.

Many vineyards that are on old orchard properties are also heavily contaminated due to the fact that arsenic was used as a fungicide many years ago and those heavy metals don't break down in the soil.

The good news is that CCA treated lumber is being phased out for more enviromentally products. If it really freaks you out, you can use steel posts...

Steve Snyder
Owner/Winemaker/Grower
www.hollywoodhillvineyards.com

 


#4 Wade's Wines

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Posted 04 February 2007 - 11:07 AM

How about creosote treated posts? What's the scoop on them? I know you can't buy them in some states, but you can in TN and they last ...about...forever! Any bleeding to grapes, etc?
Wade
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#5 Pat H.

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Posted 04 February 2007 - 11:58 AM

I don't know abut ACQ, but CCA posts, which is what I'm using, will prevent you from having a certified organic vineyard. I checked this with an Ag Agent and he confirmed it.

#6 gregorio

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Posted 04 February 2007 - 12:12 PM

QUOTE (Wade's Wines @ Feb 4 2007, 09:39 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
How about creosote treated posts? What's the scoop on them? I know you can't buy them in some states, but you can in TN and they last ...about...forever! Any bleeding to grapes, etc?
Wade


If it does not kill the plant, creosote components can be passed into the food chain via fruits and vegetabes.
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#7 nychris

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Posted 04 February 2007 - 12:23 PM

QUOTE (Wade's Wines @ Feb 4 2007, 12:39 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
How about creosote treated posts? What's the scoop on them? I know you can't buy them in some states, but you can in TN and they last ...about...forever! Any bleeding to grapes, etc?
Wade



Thank you for the great responces!!!

Anyone know where I can get some good wood post material in NY?

I need about 250 8 foot posts and some 10 footers.

Thanks

#8 Pat H.

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Posted 04 February 2007 - 12:37 PM

QUOTE (nychris @ Feb 4 2007, 01:55 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Thank you for the great responces!!!

Anyone know where I can get some good wood post material in NY?

I need about 250 8 foot posts and some 10 footers.

Thanks
I bought my posts at Lowe's, but Home Depot or most any good lumber yard can get them. I'm using pressure treated 4x6's for end posts, but 6 inch round post would work well.

#9 oldjenx

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Posted 04 February 2007 - 04:46 PM

Be careful with the new treatments. I don't know which is which, but I do know that nail companies were scrambling to find a nail surface coating that would withstand the corrosive effect of the new treatments that were mandated a few years ago. That would be detrimental to iron based fasteners and wire.

#10 Pat H.

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Posted 04 February 2007 - 08:49 PM

QUOTE (oldjenx @ Feb 4 2007, 06:18 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Be careful with the new treatments. I don't know which is which, but I do know that nail companies were scrambling to find a nail surface coating that would withstand the corrosive effect of the new treatments that were mandated a few years ago. That would be detrimental to iron based fasteners and wire.
I think the copper induces corrosion much more rapidly than what used to be used to treat lumber. I am using heavy galvanized 31/2 inch lag screws to fasten my cross beams in place. The cross beams are 4x4's.

#11 MinnesotaMaker

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Posted 04 February 2007 - 11:40 PM

QUOTE (Pat H. @ Feb 4 2007, 09:21 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I think the copper induces corrosion much more rapidly than what used to be used to treat lumber. I am using heavy galvanized 31/2 inch lag screws to fasten my cross beams in place. The cross beams are 4x4's.

Here is a good site giving recommended fasterners for treated wood in a variety of applications.
http://www.ufpi.com/...r/fasteners.htm

#12 Pat H.

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Posted 05 February 2007 - 06:45 AM

QUOTE (MinnesotaMaker @ Feb 5 2007, 01:12 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Here is a good site giving recommended fasterners for treated wood in a variety of applications.
http://www.ufpi.com/...r/fasteners.htm
Excelent reference. My lag screws are hot dip galvanized, looks like they're okay.

#13 oldjenx

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Posted 05 February 2007 - 06:54 AM

QUOTE (MinnesotaMaker @ Feb 5 2007, 12:12 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Here is a good site giving recommended fasterners for treated wood in a variety of applications.
http://www.ufpi.com/...r/fasteners.htm

There is some interesting information on that site. In particular "Spacer materials or other physical barriers are recommended to prevent direct contact of ACQ pressure-treated wood and aluminum products". Some trellis wire, such as that sold by Spec Trellising, is aluminum coated. Apparently, the extra corrosion prevention provided by aluminum in most cases, is defeated by ACQ treatment.

#14 Pat H.

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Posted 05 February 2007 - 07:34 AM

QUOTE (oldjenx @ Feb 5 2007, 08:26 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
There is some interesting information on that site. In particular "Spacer materials or other physical barriers are recommended to prevent direct contact of ACQ pressure-treated wood and aluminum products". Some trellis wire, such as that sold by Spec Trellising, is aluminum coated. Apparently, the extra corrosion prevention provided by aluminum in most cases, is defeated by ACQ treatment.
I know that you can't use bottom paint containing copper, which most of them use these days, on an aluminum hulled boat or on outdrives which have aluminum housings. You have to use the older type paints with zinc or lead (if memory serves) in them.

#15 Andy in SoCal

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Posted 05 February 2007 - 11:28 AM

QUOTE (vine2wine @ Feb 4 2007, 10:28 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I don't believe that CCA leaches out of the posts in enough concentration or distance to affect the vines. I have never seen a study to prove that but don't think there's a problem with using CCA.
fwiw, in addition, I've read that plant's roots can't uptake arsenic. So it seems the only danger is if you lick the posts. Alot.

Andy
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