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Protect Grapes From Wasps? ?


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#1 lina

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Posted 04 August 2006 - 11:19 PM

Hello,

I found about your forum on a google search looking for advice from experienced growers as to how to protect the grapes from wasps. I live in Bulgaria and my dad has a medium size vineyard for personal use as we are a big family, but last year he could not fight the wasps successfully and they ate all in front of his eyes, there was none left. He tried putting like a net bag over each cluster but the wasps still could reach through it. He doesn't like the idea of paper bags over the clusters which I read about on the net as they are quite a few clusters now and also he wants direct sunlight on the grapes. I was wondering if there is any good spray you would could recommend to repel the wasps. I hope I have written at the right place. Thanks.

Lina

#2 vine2wine

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Posted 05 August 2006 - 08:17 AM

QUOTE (lina @ Aug 4 2006, 11:51 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Hello,

I found about your forum on a google search looking for advice from experienced growers as to how to protect the grapes from wasps. I live in Bulgaria and my dad has a medium size vineyard for personal use as we are a big family, but last year he could not fight the wasps successfully and they ate all in front of his eyes, there was none left. He tried putting like a net bag over each cluster but the wasps still could reach through it. He doesn't like the idea of paper bags over the clusters which I read about on the net as they are quite a few clusters now and also he wants direct sunlight on the grapes. I was wondering if there is any good spray you would could recommend to repel the wasps. I hope I have written at the right place. Thanks.

Lina



Lina.

I don't know of any repellent that works against wasps that would not also be very toxic on the grapes. There is netting available for wasps but it is fairly expensive and blocks some of the sun. The best thing to do is go on the offensive. Put out wasp traps early in the season; hopefully you can find them in your country. Also try to find the nests and destroy them. Do you know if these wasps build paper or mud nests?

#3 lina

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Posted 05 August 2006 - 10:56 AM

QUOTE (vine2wine @ Aug 5 2006, 08:49 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Lina.

I don't know of any repellent that works against wasps that would not also be very toxic on the grapes. There is netting available for wasps but it is fairly expensive and blocks some of the sun. The best thing to do is go on the offensive. Put out wasp traps early in the season; hopefully you can find them in your country. Also try to find the nests and destroy them. Do you know if these wasps build paper or mud nests?





Hi vine2wine,

Thanks for responding so quickly. I think it is the European wasp judging by their looks. My dad found a tiny paper nest the other day at the roof tiles on outbuilding and destroyed it but how is it possible to find all nests and those traps he knows about they also can re-direct only some of the wasps, plus I think it might be dangerous to set cans of nectar around, even if they are placed higher up , as it might attract a lot of wasps in one place, and my nieces are too young running around the whole garden uncontrollably.

The thing is last year he did netting of individual clusters and it didnít work, putting a whole veil of netting over the vines is not possible as it is those vines that are arranged to grow up like a roof shelter, sorry I donít know what they are called.

I understand repellents are not much of a solution also because if you use pesticides they are to be used at intervals starting at the beginning of the season, and now it's too late to start, they are nearly ripe and it looks like it's gonna be another disastrous year. The grapes he planted are all sorts and of course the thicker-skinned ones, for wine, which he also makes for himself, do not get touched by the wasps, but all the rest get completely eaten. We live in the city so it seems like there aren't vines around and the wasps get concentrated here.

Also he has 4 bee hives, as he makes honey for home use, and they are just next to the vines. I read bees are needed to pollinate your vines for grape production but after when grapes are ripe they spread the information to their friends...

I am not sure if planting nectar-producing flowers or yew trees (?) for their berries at the other end of the garden would work either as it could lure away some of the bees/wasps but still it's gonna be a fight. We used to have a place outside the city, like in a villa area where everybody had vines and we had never encountered such a problem before but now it's is almost times to call it quits for some sorts of grapes at least.

It is funny how wasps are made to live and they need to feed on something too as thatís how they are created, bees seem to be way better in many aspects but I guess itís like some people in this world, there are bad creations and good creations. We can only hope we are not found bad in the end.

#4 zap3584

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Posted 05 August 2006 - 06:49 PM

Lina

Many wasps are benificial predators of other insects but yellow jackets and European wasps can be real headache to grape growers. I share your problem with wasps. I have a Blueberry bushes and grape vines and the wasps will eat half the blueberries and all the grapes if left unchecked.

Several years ago there was a hatch of 17 year cicadas and the local Lowes store was selling Cicada netting. This netting was 28 ft. by 32 ft. and fine enough to keep most of the critters out.

I bought several and they worked great for two years and I got to harvest all my blueberries and grapes. Then after the second year the netting started to rip and disintegrate from UV exposure. Now I can't find the stuff anywhere locally or on the internet.

Trapping the little buggers is a wast of time. For every one you trap there are 5 more eating your grapes.

Searching on Google I did find articles on toxic baiting trials being done down in Austrailia and in New Zealand.
http://www.gwrdc.com...../DAV 99-1.pdf

A micro-encapsulated pesticide was used with various baits. The idea is that the micr-encapsulation does not kill the wasp right away. Instead the wasp feeds and takes the bait back to the nest and the whole nest is killed off. The pesticide found most effective was Fipronil which of course you can't buy direct. I did find that Fipronil is the active agent in Termidor SC Termite control insecticide but it is not labled for this use.


Here is a link to a site that sells bait that is supposed to kill wasps.
http://www.bugspray....lowjackets.html

You would have to monitor the bait closly to ensure only wasps are coming to it and not bees before switching to the poisoned bait.


Walt
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#5 Francis Eric

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Posted 05 August 2006 - 08:20 PM

The Only thing I know of that is used for getting bees away is Smoke,
but with the wind during the fall it might Blow the opposite way.

It's too bad they don't make a machine that blows smoke on vines.



When you said that in rural parts of the country where more vines are at their isn't bad problems with wasps.This makes me believe that if you where to plant another type of plant that the wasps would have somthing else in the fall.

#6 fingerlakes

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Posted 05 August 2006 - 10:06 PM

I am not sure what kind of vines you are dealing with but I don't think you need any bees for pollination. Someone correct me if I am wrong there. I say this because there is no showy flowers on the vines and no nectar reward for insects. I believe they are self pollinated. But that could be only vinefera vines and I am no expert in the field of viticulture... Not yet anyway. Maybe have a pro come in and locate the nest and destroy them.


Cheers...

#7 oldjenx

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Posted 06 August 2006 - 03:40 AM

Malthion was suggested on another discussion site. I think the idea is to spray directly on the bunches. You just have to wait 2 days before picking. I am a little nervous about spraying directly on the grapes, but I bet it works.

#8 gregorio

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Posted 06 August 2006 - 04:30 PM

Wasps are very different than honey bees. Malathion is deadly to bees and daytime application especially during the spring or bloom should be avoided. Malathion is not as effective on wasps unless sprayed directly on them. Even so, there are many better products for direct contact killing but should only be used on the nest. Spraying the airborn insects is impossible without killing every other insect around. The only way to control wasps is to kill the entire nest.

The only thing you can do right now is walk around and look for the nests. They wil be in the ground or under logs, etc. Mark them and wait for nighfall before attempting to kill the wasps. There are many prepackaged aerosols specifically for wasps. They are simple and effective. Baiting with micro-encapsulated diazanon or ficam is another thing you can do if you can't find their nests. I'd recommend both. Next spring, start trapping early. It will capture the strong adults that survive the winter and become potential queens. Keep it up all year long but be sure to try different baits. Early in the year, protiens are better but sugar works great in the late summer and fall.
Perrucci Family Wines by Kennedy Hill Vineyards. Contact us regarding our monthly cork group buys.

#9 Taurus

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Posted 06 August 2006 - 08:09 PM

I've had some success baiting them with fish or fruit. I hang the bait from a 1/2 meter tall tripod. The bait is suspended about 1 cm above a dish of soapy water. When the insects fill up on bait, they fly off, naturally dropping a few cm. Since the soap breaks the water's tension, the insects sink and drown. It also catches many flies. I suggest rigging some of these traps in locations that may intercept the insects before they get to your fields.

Here is a photo: http://www.lifehacke...trap-175438.php

The biggest problem comes at night when animals make off with the bait & tripods!

Good luck.

#10 gregorio

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Posted 06 August 2006 - 10:04 PM

QUOTE (Taurus @ Aug 6 2006, 07:41 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I've had some success baiting them with fish or fruit. I hang the bait from a 1/2 meter tall tripod. The bait is suspended about 1 cm above a dish of soapy water. When the insects fill up on bait, they fly off, naturally dropping a few cm. Since the soap breaks the water's tension, the insects sink and drown. It also catches many flies. I suggest rigging some of these traps in locations that may intercept the insects before they get to your fields.

Here is a photo: http://www.lifehacke...trap-175438.php

The biggest problem comes at night when animals make off with the bait & tripods!

Good luck.


This might look effective but is doing nothing to control the population. For every one that is drowned, 100's more are hatching in the nest. The wasps that are out foraging for food do not eat until they are back in the nest. By spiking the bait with an encapsulated poison, they will take it back to the nest and share it wil the entire colony including the queen. Kill her and the nest of 1,000 or so wasps dies.
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#11 bzac

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Posted 07 August 2006 - 05:13 AM

Spaced between the vines , hang a piece of fish or meat on a string from the bottom fruiting wire, so that it hangs about 10 - 15cm off the ground,

place a shallow pan of water under the fish. pour a small amount of oil on the water.

the meat will attact the wasps ( they like meat and fish more than grapes ) the wasps will fall in the pan of water and oil and die.

place several of these traps in the vineyard.

this is how we do it at the family vineyard in moravia Czech republic , I think you would have the same kind of wasps in bulgaria.

Zac
Above all relax , it's winemaking ,it's not supposed to be stressfull . It's not sky diving.

Zac Brown

#12 gregorio

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Posted 07 August 2006 - 07:50 AM

QUOTE (bzac @ Aug 7 2006, 04:45 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Spaced between the vines , hang a piece of fish or meat on a string from the bottom fruiting wire, so that it hangs about 10 - 15cm off the ground,

place a shallow pan of water under the fish. pour a small amount of oil on the water.

the meat will attact the wasps ( they like meat and fish more than grapes ) the wasps will fall in the pan of water and oil and die.

place several of these traps in the vineyard.

this is how we do it at the family vineyard in moravia Czech republic , I think you would have the same kind of wasps in bulgaria.

Zac


These types of controls might actually be doing more harm than good. If even one out of 10 wasps makes it back to the nest with the bait, it will feed 100 replacements. Besides, late in the season, they are not as attracted to protien as they are to sugar. Here in California, they will pass up the meat and fish for sugar by mid-August just about the time we are done with verasion.
Perrucci Family Wines by Kennedy Hill Vineyards. Contact us regarding our monthly cork group buys.

#13 zap3584

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Posted 07 August 2006 - 10:03 AM

QUOTE (gregorio @ Aug 6 2006, 07:02 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Wasps are very different than honey bees. Malathion is deadly to bees and daytime application especially during the spring or bloom should be avoided. Malathion is not as effective on wasps unless sprayed directly on them. Even so, there are many better products for direct contact killing but should only be used on the nest. Spraying the airborn insects is impossible without killing every other insect around. The only way to control wasps is to kill the entire nest.

The only thing you can do right now is walk around and look for the nests. They wil be in the ground or under logs, etc. Mark them and wait for nighfall before attempting to kill the wasps. There are many prepackaged aerosols specifically for wasps. They are simple and effective. Baiting with micro-encapsulated diazanon or ficam is another thing you can do if you can't find their nests. I'd recommend both. Next spring, start trapping early. It will capture the strong adults that survive the winter and become potential queens. Keep it up all year long but be sure to try different baits. Early in the year, protiens are better but sugar works great in the late summer and fall.


Gregorio
Do you know of a source for microencapsulated diazanon or Ficam? I thought they were off the market. I have read that microencapsulated Suspend SC is a replacement for Diazanon but have not tried it. Do you have any experience with using this for baiting? I would like to know what sweet baits you have found sucessful and what rate of mix you use.
Will you be at Winefest 2006? If so, hopefully we can meet and discuss this topic.
Thanks
Walt
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#14 TheTone

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Posted 07 August 2006 - 10:39 AM

QUOTE (zap3584 @ Aug 7 2006, 10:35 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Gregorio
Do you know of a source for microencapsulated diazanon or Ficam? I thought they were off the market. I have read that microencapsulated Suspend SC is a replacement for Diazanon but have not tried it. Do you have any experience with using this for baiting? I would like to know what sweet baits you have found sucessful and what rate of mix you use.
Will you be at Winefest 2006? If so, hopefully we can meet and discuss this topic.
Thanks
Walt

I have purchased Suspend from www.bugspray.com. I had limited success with it, but it may have been my bait or too strong a mixture. The little vermin weren't that attracted to my offering. Bugspray.com now has another product (cyfluthrin - Tempo SC Ultra) that they rate a bit higher. It's $70 for 8 oz.

#15 bzac

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Posted 07 August 2006 - 10:59 AM

QUOTE (gregorio @ Aug 7 2006, 08:22 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
These types of controls might actually be doing more harm than good. If even one out of 10 wasps makes it back to the nest with the bait, it will feed 100 replacements. Besides, late in the season, they are not as attracted to protien as they are to sugar. Here in California, they will pass up the meat and fish for sugar by mid-August just about the time we are done with verasion.


Ok but this guy lives in bulgaria , not the USA .
It is likely that he will have to get his sprays from the EU which has alot tighter controls on chemicals that the US does. He can't likely order any chemicals from the USA because of the tighter controls these days ( i can't imagine that the USA will let pesticides be shipped to eastern europe, what with the paranoia level being what it is) And Canada has banned pesticide sales to the general public in many areas (I can't even buy a can of Raid in Quebec) .

given this what do you guys reccomend?
Above all relax , it's winemaking ,it's not supposed to be stressfull . It's not sky diving.

Zac Brown




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