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Exhaust & Intake For Winemaking Room


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#1 rumpole

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Posted 14 July 2006 - 03:45 PM

Ok, walls going up in winemaking room & cold storage. Need to ventilate during fermentation. Room will be about 16 x17 (8 foot ceiling) with 100-200 gallons of must over a 2-4 week period. Will a wall exhaust fan and some type of fresh air intake fan on opposite wall be safe? Any recommendations on were to purchase such fans? Local shops don't know or want to figure out. Thanks.

#2 sharpstick

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Posted 14 July 2006 - 04:00 PM

QUOTE (rumpole @ Jul 14 2006, 06:17 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Ok, walls going up in winemaking room & cold storage. Need to ventilate during fermentation. Room will be about 16 x17 (8 foot ceiling) with 100-200 gallons of must over a 2-4 week period. Will a wall exhaust fan and some type of fresh air intake fan on opposite wall be safe? Any recommendations on were to purchase such fans? Local shops don't know or want to figure out. Thanks.


i didn't know ventilation was required, but i guess with that much must . . .
i would think any small vent fan like a bathroom fan on each end would be fine. you don't need a huge turnover of air, do you? install a flex duct from the exhaust to vent out of the house to remove CO2.
if you exchange too much air, keep in mind that you're taking in ambient temperature and humidity along with dust and insects unless you have the vents screened and/or filtered.
bill keiser
"From man's sweat and God's love, beer came into the world." Saint Arnold of Metz, patron saint of brewers

#3 gregorio

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Posted 15 July 2006 - 08:33 PM

QUOTE (rumpole @ Jul 14 2006, 03:17 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Ok, walls going up in winemaking room & cold storage. Need to ventilate during fermentation. Room will be about 16 x17 (8 foot ceiling) with 100-200 gallons of must over a 2-4 week period. Will a wall exhaust fan and some type of fresh air intake fan on opposite wall be safe? Any recommendations on were to purchase such fans? Local shops don't know or want to figure out. Thanks.


If you have a door, just open it. With those dimensions, you probably don't need much to vent it. If you are still ocncerned, you can use a small 3-400 cfm fan and run it for about 5 minutes. My winery is 20x40x10 and I've had 8 tons fermenting at one time without using a fan. All I do is open the double doors for a minute. The CO2 is thick for about 30 seconds but dissapates quickly. BTW, the presence of CO2 is easily detected in the first breath you take. If you feel like you are suffocating or having difficulty taking a breath, get out right away.
Perrucci Family Wines by Kennedy Hill Vineyards. Contact us regarding our monthly cork group buys.

#4 rumpole

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Posted 16 July 2006 - 03:05 PM

Thanks for the reassurance guys. I will put in a good wall exhaust fan and rely on open window & door for punch downs!

#5 Foolish Vintner

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Posted 07 August 2006 - 06:35 PM

QUOTE (rumpole @ Jul 16 2006, 05:37 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Thanks for the reassurance guys. I will put in a good wall exhaust fan and rely on open window & door for punch downs!

Just a few points.
(a) Carbon Dioxide is an asphixiant , meaning it will displace the Oxygen in the room. Normally, there is 20.8% Oxygen in the air. It is difficult to function at 19.5% and you will pass out at less than 16 % Oxygen. So, the big question is will 200 gallons of fermentating wine produce enough CO2 to displace 1.3% O2. I think so. Relying on your body as an indicator of low oxygen in the atmosphere is not advisable. Thousands of people die every year from entering spaces that have low O2 levels.

48% of Sugar is converted to CO2 during fermentation.( by mass) 200 gallons of must at 21 brix = 124 g/l * 200 * 3.785 = 93868 grams sugar in 200 gallons must. >>> 45056 grams CO2. 1 thousand cubic feet carbon dioxide = 115.97 pounds or 63203 grams >> 700 cubic feet of CO2.

A room 16 x 17 x 8 = 2176 cubic feet. * 1.3 %= 28.3 cubic feet of CO2 to make your room dangerous. and you are making 700 CF CO2 over a two week period. You need a ventillation system (fan with clean exchange air from an outside air source.)

(cool.gif If you are venting for safety, to remove the carbon dioxide from fermentation than a good exhaust fan will do, with clean make up air. Generally you need 7 to 10 air exchanges to be safe. Take the volume of your room and compare it to the CFM of the fan. Now, the size of the fan is not the issue. The issue is how long the fan runs before you enter the room. 16 x 17 x 8 =2176 cubic feet. If your fan is rated at 2000 Cubic feet per minute, than you must let it run for about 10 minutes before entering. Important point, make sure you can turn on your fan without entering the room.

I'm sorry for the long post and geeky math , but this is important stuff. Breathing is not just a bad habit.

Rich smileytoast.gif

#6 stevec

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Posted 07 August 2006 - 08:06 PM

I hold my breath and light a match before I enter the fermenting room. I always leave a window open and a fan on, but ya never know........if the match goes out, I open the window further and turn the fan on higher.

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#7 WineyDog

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Posted 08 August 2006 - 07:09 AM

QUOTE (stevec @ Aug 7 2006, 09:38 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I hold my breath and light a match before I enter the fermenting room. . . . .
Somehow I see a cartoon in the back of my mind . . . Wile E. Coyote checking out Road Runnerís fermentorium . . . only thereís alcohol fumes . . . lotís of them.

Bill,
Chief Wine Taster - My Wines
Winey Dog Wines
Freeburg, Il


#8 HonkingGooseWine

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Posted 08 August 2006 - 10:13 AM

I have a very similar sized room and ferment 200 gallons +-. I have a attic style fan installed in the wall near the high point of the wall and a screened fresh air vent on the opposite end. I turn on the fan when I enter the room and turn it back off when I leave the room. It also works great to pull out the hot air during high temperatures.

Link to a fan like I have.
http://www.farreys.c...900n_1200n.html

Frank
HonkingGoose Vineyard and Winery
Sonoma, California

#9 gregorio

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Posted 08 August 2006 - 11:07 AM

QUOTE (Foolish Vintner @ Aug 7 2006, 06:07 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Just a few points.
(a) Carbon Dioxide is an asphixiant , meaning it will displace the Oxygen in the room. Normally, there is 20.8% Oxygen in the air. It is difficult to function at 19.5% and you will pass out at less than 16 % Oxygen. So, the big question is will 200 gallons of fermentating wine produce enough CO2 to displace 1.3% O2. I think so. Relying on your body as an indicator of low oxygen in the atmosphere is not advisable. Thousands of people die every year from entering spaces that have low O2 levels.

48% of Sugar is converted to CO2 during fermentation.( by mass) 200 gallons of must at 21 brix = 124 g/l * 200 * 3.785 = 93868 grams sugar in 200 gallons must. >>> 45056 grams CO2. 1 thousand cubic feet carbon dioxide = 115.97 pounds or 63203 grams >> 700 cubic feet of CO2.

A room 16 x 17 x 8 = 2176 cubic feet. * 1.3 %= 28.3 cubic feet of CO2 to make your room dangerous. and you are making 700 CF CO2 over a two week period. You need a ventillation system (fan with clean exchange air from an outside air source.)

(cool.gif If you are venting for safety, to remove the carbon dioxide from fermentation than a good exhaust fan will do, with clean make up air. Generally you need 7 to 10 air exchanges to be safe. Take the volume of your room and compare it to the CFM of the fan. Now, the size of the fan is not the issue. The issue is how long the fan runs before you enter the room. 16 x 17 x 8 =2176 cubic feet. If your fan is rated at 2000 Cubic feet per minute, than you must let it run for about 10 minutes before entering. Important point, make sure you can turn on your fan without entering the room.

I'm sorry for the long post and geeky math , but this is important stuff. Breathing is not just a bad habit.

Rich smileytoast.gif


LOL ! I drank a couple bottles of wine one afternoon doing the same calculations! After figuring out the maximum potential daily CO2 generation, I decided that a 10,000CFM fan pushing fresh air into the back of the room for 10 minutes to change the air 10 times in our 9,000cf winery. No way would this work. No way could this be right so I opened another bottle. What was I missing? My brother (aero engineer) shows up and pointed out that the winery is not hermetically sealed and that an amount of gas (O2, CO2, N, etc) equal to what is being produced will escape through the cracks in the doors, walls, etc.

I can't remember the rest of the numbers/calculations (too much wine that day) but it turns out that there isn't as much CO2 in the room as the math would lead us to believe.
Perrucci Family Wines by Kennedy Hill Vineyards. Contact us regarding our monthly cork group buys.

#10 Foolish Vintner

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Posted 16 August 2006 - 06:21 PM

QUOTE (gregorio @ Aug 8 2006, 01:39 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
LOL ! I drank a couple bottles of wine one afternoon doing the same calculations! After figuring out the maximum potential daily CO2 generation, I decided that a 10,000CFM fan pushing fresh air into the back of the room for 10 minutes to change the air 10 times in our 9,000cf winery. No way would this work. No way could this be right so I opened another bottle. What was I missing? My brother (aero engineer) shows up and pointed out that the winery is not hermetically sealed and that an amount of gas (O2, CO2, N, etc) equal to what is being produced will escape through the cracks in the doors, walls, etc.

I can't remember the rest of the numbers/calculations (too much wine that day) but it turns out that there isn't as much CO2 in the room as the math would lead us to believe.


Yeah, I do the math to show people the potential problem. I have 20 barrels fermentating in a 16 x35 barn cellar which is not sealed well at all and my O2 meter has been as low as 16%. when the auto fan control was turned off.

#11 gregorio

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Posted 16 August 2006 - 09:13 PM

QUOTE (Foolish Vintner @ Aug 16 2006, 05:53 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Yeah, I do the math to show people the potential problem. I have 20 barrels fermentating in a 16 x35 barn cellar which is not sealed well at all and my O2 meter has been as low as 16%. when the auto fan control was turned off.


Do you have an automated system to vent the CO2 when O2 drops too low? 16% is pretty low.
Perrucci Family Wines by Kennedy Hill Vineyards. Contact us regarding our monthly cork group buys.

#12 rumpole

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Posted 06 September 2006 - 02:43 PM

Ok, I didn't do the math before I decided what to do. But, I did install a 470 CFM wall exhaust fan with a switch just inside the exterior door. Also put in 2 small windows for air intake.

Where can I find a good O2 meter or CO2 meter?




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