207 replies to this topic

[P Cuthbert]

Thanks for the fine words Tim; Perhaps while we have everyones attention you might explain the reasoning behind the use of bentonite.

Everyone;
My brew room is currently a steady 68* F. The lights are off and there is little air circulation except for when I check on things.

I am happy to give you all some visual of what i have done in the past to make successful wine kits. I have put them up in blind taste tests against commercial wines which were "at their peak" and out shone many of them.

I hope that this will generate some questions and ideas that we can discuss as "real" wine making season comes near.

Pat

[Hippie]

It is real winemaking season all the time at my house, but I know what you mean!

[BB]

Nice post Pat; Ive made many kits Pat, but never have I mixed it, as you

say to prevent layering. Good idea, Ill be trying this on my next wine.

We always learn something no matter how simple. Bill

[Hippie]

Bill, do you not stir the must well after all the additions and before pitching the yeast? This will prevent layering of the juice.

[Tim Vandergrift]

What can I tell you about bentonite? Do you want to know the difference between fining philosophy for day one addition and addition at stabilising, or why we use it at all?

[Hippie]

Except to make it clear faster, why should we use it at the beginning or at the end? I read the logic somewhere else, (probably in Winemaker) but I forgot.

[BB]

Glenvall; I never tried to use any type of electric mixer, I generally stir with

back of spoon but very very gently, been lucky I guess. Ill be using

his method now. Sorry about the confusion, thats why Im here to learn

from the pros. Bill

[drew22to375]

Man just in time. My very first kit just arived today (BK Selection Vieux Chateau Du Roi) this thread will be very helpful..

[MedPretzel]

Hello everyone!

This was a GREAT help to me for my (almost) first wine kit -- Orchard Valley Supply - thank you! -- I am making an elderberry-apple-red currant wine kit (Vinamat) for the very first time. 5.5 gallons, they say. So, of course, I'm always pretty skeptical of making such large batches.

I was also confused (sorry, maybe ignorance) why you added betonite at day one. I added it to my strawberry wine just about 3 weeks before bottling. Not that I know anything about making wine, but I just thought it was a clearing agent that was used **after** fermentation was completed.

What are the advantages/disadvantages of using betonite at an early/late stage of home winemaking?

Thanks,

Martina

[Tim Vandergrift]

Well, Winexpert/Brew King kits ask for the bentonite to be added on day one. We use it for the same reasons as any commercial winery: to remove proteins and colloids from solution, to leave the wine clear closer to bottling.

By adding it on day one, we ensure that it gets recirculated numerous times by the churning action of the CO2 bubbles during fermentation. As it's stirred up, it has a chance to come in contact with proteins, aminos and colloids, attach to them through molecular adsorption, and pull them from suspension.

When you add bentonite later in the process, you're obligated to use a lot more: we put either 10grams for whites, 15 grams for reds. The companies that add them post-fermentation use 30 grams in the whites and 80 grams in the reds. That's an awful lot of bentonite! However, you need to add that much because of the limited possibilities for recirculation and adsorption.

That's consistent with our fining philosophy in general: use the least intervention that will achieve your desired end. So, we're light on finings, and they just barely work to clear the wine. On the other hand, we're far less likely to strip our wines with our fining regimen.

Hope that helps out.

[MedPretzel]

Thanks for the insight -- but does this also apply to gelatin finings when I make my "own" wine?

Should I also add them at day one?

Thanks for the input!



martina

[Tim Vandergrift]

Sorry, I should be more clear: when making a wine kit, it is important to follow the directions included, omitting no detail, however slight. The instructions are different for every kit, so follow them individually rather than attempting to standardise.

Believe me, I wrote the instructions for three of the major companies in the industry: they're all different!

Don't add your gelatin on day one: add it when it is called for in the instructions.

It's not so much a matter of whose technology or methodology is correct, it's actually the philosophy behind the finings. Day one bentonite = slow, potentially weak finings with minimal intervention. Post-fermentation bentonite = much more agressive finings and faster clearing. Neither is wrong, both are simply different.

[Phyllis]

I have some questions about the oak. What I usually do is make up a little cheesecloth bag, I've heard nylon works too, and put it in at the beginning in the primary fermenter. So, am I losing some of the flavor or benefits that come from the oak by not incorporating more fully if I sprinkled it directly in?
Also, I haven't seen instructions to put hot water on it first, but will do so if it's important.
Does the oak settle completely if sprinkled in or do you have a problem when filtering?
I've been reading about oak cubes. Could these be substituted for the oak in the kit, or is it best to stick with what comes with it.

[Seb]

So, am I losing some of the flavor or benefits that come from the oak by not incorporating more fully if I sprinkled it directly in?
Also, I haven't seen instructions to put hot water on it first, but will do so if it's important.
Does the oak settle completely if sprinkled in or do you have a problem when filtering?
I've been reading about oak cubes. Could these be substituted for the oak in the kit, or is it best to stick with what comes with it.


Phyllis, You will not loose any flavor if you use a cheese cloth instead of sprinkled it directly in the must. It is a good way to retrieve the oak chips later.

To sterilize oak chips, some peoples use an hot water treatment but personnaly i don't really like this. You will loose some oakiness from the hot water treatment. Instead, you could simply place them in a small oven like a toast-R-oven at 150-200 F during 15min but just keep an eye on it. Place the oak chips in an aluminum pan.

The oak will settle well if they have the time for it. This is also one of the reason i prefer to use oak bean rather than small chips. The larger the chips/bean, the longer they need to macerate to extract the oak from them. And of course you can substitute the oak that come with the kits with oak bean and you will improve the wine but they are not cheap.

Séb

[Joel]

Pat, would you want this all put on my site perhaps as "Users' Methods" I could put it in the recipe section.

Let me know and I can lift all of this from the forum for you.

Cheers,
joel